Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

Sorry, but you`re not allowed to have a middle of the road balanced opinion.

You`re opinion does not count in our looney Left world.....

got it?........... Good.

View attachment 19737

Signed: SenileTom & GrumpyGroaner.

Lets see now, after some extremist media propaganda over the problems in Northern Ireland you imagine you represent a "Middle of the Road" opinion?
And in this latest post come out with this?
"You`re opinion does not count in our looney Left world..... "
And finish with
"Signed: SenileTom & GrumpyGroaner."

So that is Middle of the Road, is it? Mr Murdoch will be proud of his creation.

 

[oldgroaner]

In my experience, one needs to be very careful about what you wish for.. you might get it. Now OG has been very clear for a long time that the UK people need to be punished severely for the mistake of voting leave. And that after wandering in the economic wilderness for a a number of years they might be willing to rejoin the promised land.That is an old testament mindset... So coming from I believe an atheist ( Not going back to check posts) , somewhat surprising.
I simply don't think that the world and history works that way. The guilty do not get punished, the foolish blame their folly on others and find scapegoats , a new accommodation is reached. A new dynamic appears and people adjust to it.
The best way to stop bad things happening in the future is to stop them now. You don't get out of a hole by Digging deeper.... Australia is a long way down.

Thats rather sad! I didn't say that the British Public NEED to be punished so much as INTEND to be, and that hopefully they would benefit from it, after all it was a slight majority that should have been careful "What they wished for" not me by voting for Brexit.

Whereas you are saying they will NEVER learn.
If you are correct we are heading for Australia, as there is no way we can stop Brexit now.
Caution is therefore required and a little "Wishing" that they will learn from this self inflicted harm is surely a good thing.

 

[Woosh]

in last night's HardTalk program, Belgian deputy PM Alexander de Croo made the point that the British government does nothing since triggering A50. That's 12% of the negotiation time.
It seems to me that the tories have not got a clue how to proceed or even what they actually want. Rumour has it that they are asking Labour for their position so they can position themselves as 'we are not Labour'. At this rate, they won't have the strength to face the 'pinch point' where both sides need to agree on the divorce bill. Johnson and Gove will have a difficult job to explain why we would agree to such a large payment.

I can see new election coming within a year.

 

[oldgroaner]

in last night's HardTalk program, Belgian deputy PM Alexander de Croo made the point that the British government does nothing since triggering A50. That's 12% of the negotiation time.
It seems to me that the tories have not got a clue how to proceed or even what they actually want. Rumour has it that they are asking Labour for their position so they can position themselves as 'we are not Labour'. At this rate, they won't have the strength to face the 'pinch point' where both sides need to agree on the divorce bill. Johnson and Gove will have a difficult job to explain why we would agree to such a large payment.

I can see new election coming within a year.

Perhaps then one of the parties will actually oppose Brexit?
Otherwise the election is a waste of a further Million pounds or more..
This Brexit Farce is getting very damaging indeed.

At this rate we will end up trying to negotiate to keep our rebate and stay in the EU!

 

[Woosh]

Otherwise the election is a waste of a further Million pounds or more.

the last one costs £135 mil, not counting spending by their parties.
but it's less than 0.1% of the divorce bill.
Lawyers charge much more than that to divorce your wife.

 

[oldgroaner]

I am reminded to "Be careful what you wish for"
So I ask the question
"What did the Brexit voters wish for?"
Lets see what we have achieved so far

1. Article 50 sent many months later than promised
2. Millions spent of Propaganda and a wasted election that undermined us further.
   
3. Huge damage to the economy
4. No sign of a plan or any negotiations
5. The fuse is burning down before we are out with nothing.

Well I'm impressed! lets hope other people too will be careful what they wish for in future

 

[oldgroaner]

the last one costs £135 mil, not counting spending by their parties.
but it's less than 0.1% of the divorce bill.
Lawyers charge much more than that to divorce your wife.

Was that all?
Absolute bargain, wasn't it?
A further referendum is obviously affordable if it's that cheap.

 

[Woosh]

"What did the Brexit voters wish for?"

in order of priority:

1. Recover 100% sovereignty, ie not having to accept EU directives.
2. Control EU immigration

But I think we may have to accept 50% of those targets.

 

[oldgroaner]

in order of priority:

1. Recover 100% sovereignty, ie not having to accept EU directives.
2. Control EU immigration

But I think we may have to accept 50% of those targets.

And face economic ruin as a very slight inconvenience, but since that only affects the poor, a price worth paying shout the "Great and Good" who run the country, "This is the will of the people!"
The poor don't count anyway, do they?
The media will easily con them into thinking they have got their Hearts Desires.

 

[Woosh]

The poor don't count anyway, do they?

they never have.

 

[oldgroaner]

they never have.

Indeed!

 

[tillson]

in last night's HardTalk program, Belgian deputy PM Alexander de Croo made the point that the British government does nothing since triggering A50. That's 12% of the negotiation time.

It seems to me that the tories have not got a clue how to proceed or even what they actually want.

I can see new election coming within a year.

Since the country inherited Theresa May as Prime Minister, she has made several statements regarding exactly what the UK / government want.

1) BREXIT means BREXIT. What else could it mean? What a riddiculous statement.

2) We want the best possible deal for the UK. Why would anyone negotiating anything want to achieve less than the best possible outcome? Another meaningless series of words.

3) No deal is better than a bad deal. Is it? If I'm buying a new car, the worst deal that I can achieve is to pay the price on the windscreen, or in other words, no deal. The salesman might throw in a couple of interior mats. This would be a bad deal, but still better than no deal. So no deal is not better than a bad deal. No deal is the worst possible outcome. No deal is, by definition, a bad deal.

BREXIT is a big deal, so why are the government getting away with passing off very serious and relevant questions with such meaningless sound bites?

Theresa May has never been a supporter of leaving the EU. She has always been Theresa May's biggest fan and most loyal supporter. She morphed into the leave campaigner we see today in order to seize Number 10. Now I believe that she needs to massage her ego and satisfy her craving for self fulfilment by making a mark on history. That mark will be as the Prime Minister who took the UK out of the EU. She will stubbornly disregard any advice and evidence put before her because self obsession burns so intensely.

The only plan is Theresa May. Nothing else will be available for consideration. We, the public, will be informed that the plan is 1, 2 & 3 above and we shall be sufficiently stupid to accept it without question.

 

[Croxden]

She will stubbornly disregard any advice and evidence put before her because self obsession burns so intensely.

But she did take advice on how to run the election campaign.
It's getting the right advice that matters, I'd advice her to listen to O.G.

 

[oldgroaner]

But she did take advice on how to run the election campaign.
It's getting the right advice that matters, I'd advice her to listen to O.G.

Well at least a smile to start the day, many thanks!

Shades of the Private Jones and Captain Mainwaring reassurance, let's rearrange the words just a bit

"I have complete Faith in you OG
Even if nobody else has?"

Works for me....

 

[oldgroaner]

Since the country inherited Theresa May as Prime Minister, she has made several statements regarding exactly what the UK / government want.

1) BREXIT means BREXIT. What else could it mean? What a riddiculous statement.

2) We want the best possible deal for the UK. Why would anyone negotiating anything want to achieve less than the best possible outcome? Another meaningless series of words.

3) No deal is better than a bad deal. Is it? If I'm buying a new car, the worst deal that I can achieve is to pay the price on the windscreen, or in other words, no deal. The salesman might throw in a couple of interior mats. This would be a bad deal, but still better than no deal. So no deal is not better than a bad deal. No deal is the worst possible outcome. No deal is, by definition, a bad deal.

BREXIT is a big deal, so why are the government getting away with passing off very serious and relevant questions with such meaningless sound bites?

Theresa May has never been a supporter of leaving the EU. She has always been Theresa May's biggest fan and most loyal supporter. She morphed into the leave campaigner we see today in order to seize Number 10. Now I believe that she needs to massage her ego and satisfy her craving for self fulfilment by making a mark on history. That mark will be as the Prime Minister who took the UK out of the EU. She will stubbornly disregard any advice and evidence put before her because self obsession burns so intensely.

The only plan is Theresa May. Nothing else will be available for consideration. We, the public, will be informed that the plan is 1, 2 & 3 above and we shall be sufficiently stupid to accept it without question.

"There goes a woman who has snatched defeat from the very jaws of Victory!"

(With apologies to Honest Abe)

Beware Brexit Voters, Teresa May is to Brexit what a kiss is to your future prospects from a Mafia Godfather.

And with Davis, Fox,Gollum and Boris helping

What could possibles go Right?

I feel as if we are trapped in a Keystone Kops movie

 

[oldtom]

I simply don't think that the world and history works that way. The guilty do not get punished, the foolish blame their folly on others and find scapegoats , a new accommodation is reached.

Well, you have me at a loss 'Danidl' as I'm unclear about your message. If you remember, I said this:

In the absence of any alternative, constructive suggestion, how do you imagine that the consequences of voting for political madness might ever be brought home to those stupid enough to repeatedly vote for extremist politicians?

In that regard, I'm in agreement with OG's view that we should let this catastrophe run its course so that the idiots who voted for 'Brexit' can experience the brave new world described to them by a bunch of proven liars, cheats and racists.

I can only guess at how you imagine we might otherwise get the message through to the kind of people who have brought about this shambles we are in - perhaps you are suggesting that we make them all sit on the naughty step for ten minutes? That'll teach 'em!

Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

A point to think on is this

Five years ago a poll of the public revealed that leaving the EU wan't even on the list, people simply were not interested in the idea.

The situation we have here has been manufactured and orchestrated to inflame public anxiety over Refugees, immigrants and the mistaken impression that the EU works against the interest of the Public.

Ask yourselves for what purpose, and to who do we have to look for setting this whole thing in motion?

I urge every one to seek the answer for themselves, by all means amuse yourselves reading our comments.
Better still make the effort to Thoroughly check for yourselves, which requires more effort and intelligence than relying on the media, follow the money, the political battles in the Tory party and New Labour too, and check the record of the EU and Americans.
Lastly look around at the parlous state of the lower levels of society.
Is this the sort of country you want to live in?

Then make your minds up

 

[Woosh]

Ask yourselves for what purpose, and to who do we have to look for setting this whole thing in motion?

the EU is stepping up further social, economic, foreign policy and defense integration.
Cameron gave to people a vote, don't blame them if they don't agree with you.
Even only by a very small margin, a win is a win, MPs will want to honour that result.
However, there is no mandate for which kind of brexit the 52% have voted for, so the fair thing is to let parliament decides our negotiating position on this.
So far, by any arithmetic, there is absolutely no majority on hard brexit. If there was a free vote, I imagine the majority of MPs will want something like the Norway option, which leaves us with social and economic integration but no further integration regarding foreign policy and defense.
If Ukip kicks up a fuss about the final deal, let's have a second EU referendum.

 

[oldtom]

Theresa May has never been a supporter of leaving the EU. She has always been Theresa May's biggest fan and most loyal supporter. She morphed into the leave campaigner we see today in order to seize Number 10. Now I believe that she needs to massage her ego and satisfy her craving for self fulfilment by making a mark on history. That mark will be as the Prime Minister who took the UK out of the EU. She will stubbornly disregard any advice and evidence put before her because self obsession burns so intensely.

Some people will be wondering what's going on if I keep agreeing with your views on this topic, 'Tillson'. My answer is that there is more that we share than that which divides us.

As for the PM, you have nailed it in your summary of her in my selected piece of your text above. Sadly, we are stuck with this over-promoted woman and the tory Party cannot offer any intelligent candidate to lead them at the present time. Were there a suitable candidate likely to improve the party image, the 1922 committee would by now have invoked a vote of confidence in the leader, a device last used on my birthday in 2003 against IDS, who lost out in that vote.

Having said that, even if there were an obvious, suitable replacement for May, I'm not sure that the PCP would wish to further risk their tenuous grip on power at the present time anyway.

Of course, the problem is not simply Theresa May. Their broken promises and lies in manifesto creation don't help:



Tom

 

[Danidl]

OG has in fact been very clear
The British public do not so much NEED to be punished for voting for Brexit
They INTEND to punish themselves, I merely observe that this has become important that they are not PREVENTED from doing so.
I am in fact a HUMANIST so any apparently religious references are misplaced, it is simply the case that the public wont change without self inflicted hard lessons that "Being careful about what you wish for" applies to them.
What I wish for is that we had had more sense than to vote for Brexit, not what is inevitably going to happen now, but let's get it over with.
At least I express the hope that they will learn from their experience whereas, I see that you don't think so.

... I don't agree that the UK population intend to punish themselves, you lot may be many things but an nation of machocists is not one of them.Mind you they play cricket so maybe they are. I agree that that will be the inevitable outcome, but that was not their intention.

If I have interpreted you incorrectly , I apologise, but the strong impression I would have gleaned from your multiple postings was that you welcomed the grand correction ..and the suffering they will impose on themselves
I would wish to prevent that. There are very few examples from history where a people will wholeheartedly agree that they took a wrong turn, so no I don't think the UK is any different.
Brexit has not yet happened, it is not inevitable, it can be avoided, but the time for action is running out. I see a country sleepwalking into a landscape they have not explored, Even in the conservative camp there are apparently two widely divergent views the DUP and the Scots, are for a Brexit so diluted that it is not significantly different from the status quo, and another view wanting the hardest of all Brexits.