Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

The "police" response to the latest incident is false. I suspect that these "coppers" were all called Mick (ask no questions) and were on secondment to The Met from Hereford.

That definitely isn't the case, we do get police shipped in in numbers from time to time for major events, but they only perform mundane duties such as lining routes.

We're far from short of our own armed police and the entire central area has always had them in numbers all the time. And it's not only the very obvious mobile squads of automatic rifle carrying officers, there's also those stationed permanently at critical locations like airports, one of which is in the centre. A further substantial armed resource is that of the hundreds of Special Branch officers with three "secret" (though I know the location of them) bases in the central zone from which they can appear with astonishing rapidity.

Then there's the Trident police (SC&08), a large Met police armed unit that operates against London gun crime, plus the armed Counter Terrorism specialist police squads.

And to round all that lot off, London has a large number of diplomatic protection police around embassies, legations etc., even certain private homes, all the time, each officer always armed with sometimes concealed automatic pistols.
.

 

[Zlatan]

You cant knock any of services in last few incidents. Quite the reverse, from fire service ,ambulance and police going into situations rest of us are running from..and the police going in and shooting terrorists with no arm to public is fantastic. We should be applauding them, others have caused this situation..they go in with no blame and help us...

On the ISIS motivation, its easy to lay blame and no doubt there is some with our actions in past, but make no mistake we are at war and ISIS want our way of life destroyed. They plan ( some what optimistically) to invade massive areas including Spain and destroy western culture. It seems there is no negotiation possible? No point laying blame, we are here and we need to work out how to deal with situation. It cant be compared to IRA, we knew their demands and bad as we thought them we could see what they wanted. We cant even start to see let alone understand ISIS desires. As I see it they want to destroy our entire way of life ?? How do we negotiate with that ?

 

[flecc]

we are at war and ISIS want our way of life destroyed. They plan ( some what optimistically) to invade massive areas including Spain and destroy western culture. It seems there is no negotiation possible? No point laying blame, we are here and we need to work out how to deal with situation. It cant be compared to IRA, we knew their demands and bad as we thought them we could see what they wanted. We cant even start to see let alone understand ISIS desires. As I see it they want to destroy our entire way of life ?? How do we negotiate with that ?

ISIS are finished, basically having committed suicide. Any violent movement seeking real change needs to have political skills as well as force, and it's there that ISIS have failed. Through their blinkered stupidity they've made the whole world opposed to them, even those they seek to help in Syria.

That incompetence has resulted in them being on the verge of elimination, having been reduced to a shred of the territory they recently won. All that's needed now is to ruthlessly finally destroy their remnants.
.

 

[Zlatan]

ISIS are finished, basically having committed suicide. Any violent movement seeking real change needs to have political skills as well as force, and it's there that ISIS have failed. Through their blinkered stupidity they've made the whole world opposed to them, even those they seek to help in Syria.

That incompetence has resulted in them being on the verge of elimination, having been reduced to a shred of the teritory they recently won. All that's needed now is to ruthlessly finally destroy their remnants.
.

Hope you are right flecc, but it wont be end of fundamentalism and terrorism.

 

[oldgroaner]

Hope you are right flecc, but it wont be end of fundamentalism and terrorism.

No, but this would create the background where there is less reason for it to exist a good start would be to do the following.

1. Ending the sale of Arms to any foreign nation should be our first act, deploying those resources in making them elsewhere into more useful outlets
2. Withdrawing our troops gradually from hotspots that we are only interested in for their resources.
3. Dispose of our nuclear assets ,all they do is make us a target of opportunity if the "Big Boys" fall out.
4. Distance ourselves from America, Israel and Saudi Arabia
   
5. Understand that we are no longer the Imperial Nation we once were and act accordingly.
6. Try to Govern ourselves fairly before we impose ourselves on others, odd that we voted to leave the problems the EU allegedly caused us behind, yet impose problems created by us on others
7. Learn to respect other nations and international law, no more Drone Murders as a policy
8. Stop behaving as if these pin prick attacks are the end of the World, we didn't do that when the Lufwaffe rained death and destruction down night after night from the skies.
9. Get the Media to behave as responsible to not support and promote our enemies by sensational and deliberate spreading of Fear and Alarm. If the can't withdraw their licence to operate.
10. Distribute wealth more evenly and ensure that the population are not simply "work units" like serfs, if they are living happy and secure lives extremism will wither and die

 

[oldgroaner]

Mrs May seems to have signally failed to convince even her own party that she is the "only one strong enough to protect us from terrorism" if this is anything to go by ( in the Independent)
"
Steve Hilton, who left Downing Street in 2012, posted reports relating to an alleged suspect of Saturday’s attack, before adding: “Theresa May responsible for security failures of London Bridge, Manchester, Westminster Bridge.

“Should be resigning not seeking re-election.”

Commenting on newspaper reports that appeared to attribute some responsibility to the security services, he went on: “Theresa May blame shifting again. Her spin doctors attack MI5, but she was in charge of them for years.”

 

[oldgroaner]

Here is a reader comment I endorse whole heartedly
"
Henry Baskerville
I don't want her to resign. I want her to win and then make such a horrific **** up of the brexsh*t "negotiations" that the Tories are destroyed forever."

Yessss........................................

 

[Danidl]

You cant knock any of services in last few incidents. Quite the reverse, from fire service ,ambulance and police going into situations rest of us are running from..and the police going in and shooting terrorists with no arm to public is fantastic. We should be applauding them, others have caused this situation..they go in with no blame and help us...

On the ISIS motivation, its easy to lay blame and no doubt there is some with our actions in past, but make no mistake we are at war and ISIS want our way of life destroyed. They plan ( some what optimistically) to invade massive areas including Spain and destroy western culture. It seems there is no negotiation possible? No point laying blame, we are here and we need to work out how to deal with situation. It cant be compared to IRA, we knew their demands and bad as we thought them we could see what they wanted. We cant even start to see let alone understand ISIS desires. As I see it they want to destroy our entire way of life ?? How do we negotiate with that ?

Firstly I would agree with you about the exemplary behaviour of the front line police and emergency responders.
Unfortunately the situation with these ISIS related vile activities, is not simply nilhlistic . There is a plan and a consistency to it. There is a belief system behind it and unless one accepts that, the secular west will remain in trouble. We know what Isis wants.. a worldwide caliphate, and no place for non believers, and anyone not a believer, in their terms, is either apostate, a slave or to be killed. What constitutes acceptable belief, becomes narrower and narrower with time, but is rooted in specific instances from the Koran. One cannot negotiate with this, but one can continually engage in discussion and reasoned arguments, not with the principles of this death cult but with the people who might fall prey to it.
The failure of the west was that it allowed regime change and power vacuums to emerge allowing this blight into the open. The only way forward is to stabilise the regions, live with the inevitable vile attacks, and work towards reducing the levels of dispair which generates recruits.
The comparison with the IRA, ... In the very early stages of the Provo IRA, there was just as much inchoate anger and lack of political awareness, but that phase died.

 

[flecc]

Unfortunately the situation with these ISIS related vile activities, is not simply nilhlistic . There is a plan and a consistency to it.

While I agree with much of what you've said, I disagree that there is a discernable plan other than nihilistic attack. One clear indication is that they don't even have a single name, presenting themselves variously as IS, ISIL. Da-esh, Islamic State or ISIS.

They only rapidly expanded initially by operating in a politically and militarily weak and corrupted area, but were in truth always a shambles, which is why they quickly ended up so greatly diminished.

Attacks like those we've just suffered are in no way an indication of ISIS strength or planning. They merely reflect that society contains disaffected individuals who are attracted to the possibility of taking extreme action as a way of becoming a "someone" in what they imagine is support for their faith.

We've faced up to far more organised groups of fanatics, Al Qaeda for example, and reduced their current threat to almost non-existence, so ISIS as an organisation is really not a threat.
.

 

[cosybike]

Isis have no plan. We've all done more planning for an attack ourselves than they have ever done. I reckon it's a very macabre social media phenomenon, like planking, driven by complicated social and world-wide political issues. Climate change, war, arms sales, education opportunity poverty everything!

Sent from my Lenovo YT3-850F using Tapatalk

 

[oldgroaner]

Oh Dear!

 

[Croxden]

Oh Dear!

Certainly wasn't put up by ukip.

 

[Danidl]

While I agree with much of what you've said, I disagree that there is a discernable plan other than nihilistic attack. One clear indication is that they don't even have a single name, presenting themselves variously as IS, ISIL. Da-esh, Islamic State or ISIS.

They only rapidly expanded initially by operating in a politically and militarily weak and corrupted area, but were in truth always a shambles, which is why they quickly ended up so greatly diminished.

Attacks like those we've just suffered are in no way an indication of ISIS strength or planning. They merely reflect that society contains disaffected individuals who are attracted to the possibility of taking extreme action as a way of becoming a "someone" in what they imagine is support for their faith.

We've faced up to far more organised groups of fanatics, Al Qaeda for example, and reduced their current threat to almost non-existence, so ISIS as an organisation is really not a threat.
.

Regrettably I beg to differ
.. The violence and vile deeds are all part of an overall plan. There is an underlying philosophy, if I can call it that or a belief structure, which requires , , allows , and rewards the believer to behave in ways we would see as abhorrent.
For recent similar examples look to the polpot regime, the early days of the Russian and French Revolutions where the wrong orthodoxy would see you killed, or the inquisitions where the proponents choose to believe they were doing God's work.
As a tactic getting deluded fools to kill themselves and others is brilliant, if demonic. Being disorganised and diffuse works well also... If you are not organised you can't be infiltrated

 

[oldgroaner]

The Conservatives have posted this
https://www.conservatives.com/planforbrexit
Actually I read it under the impression I would be reading an ACTUAL PLAN
Have a look and see if you can find it....
I took it to be a wish list.

 

[Zlatan]

Regrettably I beg to differ
.. The violence and vile deeds are all part of an overall plan. There is an underlying philosophy, if I can call it that or a belief structure, which requires , , allows , and rewards the believer to behave in ways we would see as abhorrent.
For recent similar examples look to the polpot regime, the early days of the Russian and French Revolutions where the wrong orthodoxy would see you killed, or the inquisitions where the proponents choose to believe they were doing God's work.
As a tactic getting deluded fools to kill themselves and others is brilliant, if demonic. Being disorganised and diffuse works well also... If you are not organised you can't be infiltrated

I agree with all that , but it seems " most" carrying out these recent attrocities are generally home grown. Can you imagine how disaffected, distanced and remote from our society you must feel to be able to carry out these acts. Yes they perhaps get their reasoning, beliefs and justification from an overriding philosophy but that must only have an effect on totally disaffected individuals. Answers are here at home.???

OG
Your link reads very similar to your list in post 15986. Great in theory but getting there rather more difficult. Pie and sky ????

 

[oldgroaner]

OG
Your link reads very similar to your list in post 15986. Great in theory but getting there rather more difficult. Pie and sky ????

Undoubtedly! we both know that in reality nobody in the Westminster bubble will make any attempt to do any of those things suggested.

 

[Woosh]

Can you imagine how disaffected, distanced and remote from our society you must feel to be able to carry out these acts. Yes they perhaps get their reasoning, beliefs and justification from an overriding philosophy but that must only have an effect on totally disaffected individuals. Answers are here at home.???

I am not sure that the threshhold for brainwash needs to be that high. There have been many mass suicides from sect followers, the likes of Waco, and self-immolated monks in recent history.
There are also drugs that lower the human instincts of self preservation and promote violent behaviour.

 

[oldgroaner]

British Mug 1940's

British Mug 2017 Courtesy of the Press Coverage and Media

Murdoch and co must be pleased with themselves!

 

[oldgroaner]

I am not sure that the threshhold for brainwash needs to be that high. There have been many mass suicides from sect followers, the likes of Waco, and self-immolated monks in recent history.
There are also drugs that lower the human instincts of self preservation and promote violent behaviour.

Very True!

 

[oldtom]

The Conservatives have posted this
https://www.conservatives.com/planforbrexit
Actually I read it under the impression I would be reading an ACTUAL PLAN
Have a look and see if you can find it....
I took it to be a wish list.

It's a bag of a dozen lies. Anyone who believes anything that comes out of that creature's mouth has to be one of the 5% or just totally brainwashed and no longer in possession of a sound mind.

If the tory party is permitted another term of office, those 12 points in that ridiculous document purported to be a plan can be condensed into one phrase and that is: 'We are going to screw you ordinary people royally, take away any rights you think you can rely on, gained from EU membership and we will dismantle all that is left of the welfare state and NHS.'

Tom