Brexit, for once some facts.

[mountainsport]

No disrespect to anybody on here we can talk till the cows come home because at the end of the day this WORLD is finished and going down that is all I have to say and no more.

MS.

 

[mountainsport]

Don't be a spoilsport!

Tom

Like Like Like!! oldtom that was a good one!!!!!!!

MS.

 

[Danidl]

Its done no such thing, you assume the EU has prevented war within Europe, when infact its the disparate countries choosing not to repeat stupid mistakes.The countries outside EU within Europe have not gone to war...
And what policies are in place to achieve this glorious goal ?because whatever they are individual countries can and would simply choose to ignore them, if they existed.
Canada, NZ, Australia and many others who were involved in WW2 have not gone to war since formation of EUare you giving the EU credit for that too..and what about Falklands? The EU did nothing to help, stop or end that conflict. Its a complete fabrication saying EU has prevented a war, they haven't the machinary or backbone to avoid conflict. Just tell me one positive thing they have done to prevent conflict. Nothing. Saying EU has prevented a war is pure platitude , wrong and part of the misdirection from europhiles. It hasntt even got a peace keeping force, ( of any substance) besides according to OG preventing conflict is not part of EU remit.
And blaming North Korea on Brexit is a normal remainer's ploy. How on earth you reach that one goodness only knows.
And BTW its the Spanish causing conflict over Gibraltar. A Spanish warship in UK waters ??? Are the French asking for Channel Islands, the Morocans for Canaries..Gibraltar is under UK sovereignty, it should not even be mentioned, by the EU the Spanish or us in reply to threats ( like stopping water or closing borders , which BTW the Spanish are breaking EU laws with and have done so regularly over past 5 years with no recourse from EU..)
The Spanish have been making life difficult for all folk on Gibraltar for years...not a word from EU..
I wonder if Spain will be handing over Ceuta with their views on overseas Territory? Doubt it...

.... Your knowledge of recent history and dare I say geography seems to be somewhat suspect.
Australia was involved in the Vietnam conflict.
The Balkans are in Europe
The Ukraine is also in Europe
The Falklands was a fight developed by a military junta in the argantine, seeking to maintain its grasp of power against popular revolt and for its own domestic ,reasons the UK government decided to go to war. Had they choosen a diplomatic path instead they would have had EU and un sanction support. They had to hide their warlike intentions from the USA , who were appalled by the Vulcan bombing missions.
You might find it instructive to look at the Wilki pedia catalogue of wars between European states up to the ww2.
If one was to pick the singular most successful EU intervention it was the peaceful reunification of Germany. Have you any idea how close the continent was to nuclear war at that time?

 

[Danidl]

And the machinery it uses to allay conflict is called negotiating, ECJ and discussion, not tanks and guns.

 

[Danidl]

No disrespect to anybody on here we can talk till the cows come home because at the end of the day this WORLD is finished and going down that is all I have to say and no more.

MS.

... Well in the long run you are correct, the sun SOL will fizzle out, the earth will freeze. But fortunately we are not talking about the long term, I am reasonably confident that the sun will shine somewhere on the earth tomorrow, crops will grow, babies be born.etc.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

And the machinery it uses to allay conflict is called negotiating, ECJ and discussion, not tanks and guns.

and the power of trade...

 

[oldtom]

I've just given you two examples of things they have achieved - peace and trade, you must have missed that, here is a longer list:

We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of £7bn out of total government expenditure of £695bn is good value. We must play a full part in enabling the union to be a force for good in a multipolar global future.

I shan't repeat the whole list KTM but it represents an excellent summation of quite a number of the benefits of EU membership.

The principles and aims of the EU would bring about considerable improvement to many other parts of the world if their politicians could see beyond their internecine disputes with neighbouring countries and realise that poppy growing neither constitutes agriculture nor feeds the poor.

Africans need to get beyond tribalism and exploit for themselves the riches of their land and the central and South American countries could do much better if only they realised how corruption keeps the poor, poor. The same kind of problems persist in Indonesia and many other parts of the world but they will learn eventually. They need a paradigm that can be held up to their people as the way forward but that requires honest politicians, police and military to defeat ruthless cartel bosses and actually influence people by setting them on a course unlike anything they have known in recent history. The EU is a better model of the benefits that are attainable from peaceful international co-operation than that of the US or the old USSR.

Tom

 

[Kudoscycles]

I see that the leavers voted for the following reasons...
1. To not make any further payments to the EU
2. To stop free movement of people
3. Return law making to parliament and not be answerable to EU laws
4. A protest vote to ensure this government notices the poor situation of some people in the UK ,especially in the north of the U.K.

Well Thersa May has not had long on her EU negotiations but she seems to ignoring pretty much everything that the leavers voted for,is this abiding by the 'will of the people'
1. May,Davis and Boris have all said that the £350 million per week will not be forthcoming to the NHS.
2. May has admitted that free movement may have to continue in the transition phase,that could last 10 years.
3. May's Great Repeal Act will import EU law into the UK and her Henry 8 act will mean the government will filter those laws not parliament.
4. May and Hammond have made it very clear that they have no intention to listen to the protest vote,austerity will continue especially benefit cuts. The rise of food and fuel cost must make it tough on the poor,there doesn't seem any help for them to deal with Brexit.
If I was a Leaver I would be questioning what and where are we going for May seems to be the party of the rich,Brexit just camouflages this right wing Tory government.
In 2 years time I can see many saying what did we get out of our vote?
KudosDave

 

[flecc]

No... you asked which of their aims they had failed to achieve, I found their main 5 aims in a simple format. So if you think the EU is failing find me something they are failing at?

I just read this and thought of you guys, so here it is:

Only die-hard Leave ideologues can fail to see the truth now.

All the premises (read: lies) we voted Leave on have been dispelled:

There is no £350m for public services.

There is no immigration reduction because our economy needs it.

There is no sovereignty that was lost, 'it only felt like it'.

There is no collapsing EU as all member states are growing economically.

There is no 'swarm' of Turks massing on our borders, nor will there be.

There is no EU army to rival NATO or us.

There is no EU trade deal in two years, nor any non-EU deals as we leave.

There are only downsides to leaving:

A massive £MultiBillion divorce bill.

A massive risk to the break up of the United Kingdom.

A massive risk to economic downturn caused by tariffs, employees and industries turning away.

A massive risk to our inflation target as the plummeting £ makes our cost of living more expensive.

A massive risk to public services as foreign doctors and nurses leave or don't come here anymore.

A massive risk to a continued divided nation with increased hate crime and xenophobia.

A massive risk of a Tory inspired corporate low tax heaven with increased tax burden on ordinary people and less welfare and public services.

A massive risk that our children will never be able to work, live and travel easily and freely across our home continent and closest neighbours.

This is why democracy is a good thing. It's never 'one person, one vote, only once'.

We can change our minds.

Making a wrong judgement once in the absence of guidance is human, even natural, making it in the presence of contradictory truth is questionable.

Time to say we don't want this anymore. It's simply against our national and personal interest.

Here's 20 Agrees, a Like and a Well Said.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

we'll make our own laws.

Er, can you tell me when we stopped doing that?

 

[Danidl]

I agree entirely OG and I believe it behoves all decent people to ensure that none of our people go hungry or live in poverty and squalor while others cannot see beyond the expansion of their personal wealth, frequently gained from the toil and industry of those less fortunate.

Robert Burns wrote these words 222 years ago but man's inhumanity to man continues today, sadly within this particular country to our shame.

Is there for honest Poverty
That hings his head, an' a' that;
The coward slave-we pass him by,
We dare be poor for a' that!
For a' that, an' a' that.
Our toils obscure an' a' that,
The rank is but the guinea's stamp,
The Man's the gowd for a' that.

What though on hamely fare we dine,
Wear hoddin grey, an' a that;
Gie fools their silks, and knaves their wine;
A Man's a Man for a' that:
For a' that, and a' that,
Their tinsel show, an' a' that;
The honest man, tho' e'ersae poor,
Is king o' men for a' that.

Ye see yon birkie, ca'd a lord,
Wha struts, an' stares, an' a' that;
Tho' hundreds worship at his word,
He's but a coof for a' that:
For a' that, an' a' that,
His ribband, star, an' a' that:
The man o' independent mind
He looks an' laughs at a' that.

A prince can mak a belted knight,
A marquis, duke, an' a' that;
Butan honest man's abon his might,
Gude faith, he maunnafa' that!
For a' that, an' a' that,
Their dignities an' a' that;
The pith o' sense, an' pride o' worth,
Are higher rank than a' that.

Then let us pray that come it may,
(As come it will for a' that,)
That Sense and Worth, o'er a' the earth,
Shall bear the gree, an' a' that.
For a' that, an' a' that,
It's coming yet for a' that,
That Man to Man, the world o'er,
Shall brothers be for a' that.

Tom

... The singing of that song, at the opening of the Scottish parliament, is well worth viewing . See it on YouTube

 

[oldgroaner]

Quick there Robdon..reckon it took you 3 seconds from me posting to you disliking. I dislike it too but its true. Every word.
KTM
Its exactly why EU is in a mess. Imagine Ford , Rolls Royce or even Education setting those statements out as attainable.
They do it so you can not prove they have failed but counter to that you cant prove they,ve had success.
I,ll ask again..What has EU ACHIEVED ?

What is the point of answering you when you simply wander off and make contradictory claims?
You may listen , but you certainly fail to comprehend, and give no credence whatever to something done to achieve an effect in the long term.
The usual thing of knowing the cost of everything and the value of nothing, especially if you have to pay something that will benefit anyone else.
Frankly people with your short term attitude are a brake on the progress of the human race.
I can think of one glorious and dazzling achievement of the EU right away.
You hate it!
Now what's not to like about that?
Ha ha ha

 

[Danidl]

That's a ridiculous circular argument. I,m saying they have achieved very little. If your business achieved so little it would have gone bankrupt. The ains you quoted are bot worth stating. You cant say when they have been achieved or not.
its like teaching someone to drive and saying you are fostering safer driving,interest in vehicles and interest in mending them...the acid test is passing the test..achieving something.

But if you wish, the EU has failed in uniting Europe, failed in redistribution of wealth, failed in lifting people out of poverty, failed in providing work, failed in having a coherent system of control on anything from Transport to Sea Law.

Now you tell me what they have achieved. ( Ok Luxembourg have got rich quick)

... As most educational experts might suggest the acid test for competence in driving is not passing a test but having a lifetime of driving without creating an accident.

 

[oldgroaner]

Can't we all just get along?

This is us when we are getting along...
Have you thought of that?

 

[mountainsport]

... Well in the long run you are correct, the sun SOL will fizzle out, the earth will freeze. But fortunately we are not talking about the long term, I am reasonably confident that the sun will shine somewhere on the earth tomorrow, crops will grow, babies be born.etc.

I hear you very loud and clearly Danidl. and agree with you to a certain point, but let me tell you it gets much more deeper than that.
And just to remind you that tomorrow never comes.

MS.

 

[mountainsport]

This is us when we are getting along...
Have you thought of that?

You are correct oldgroaner, there are different and many ways in how we all can get along. Some women like it rough and some like it smooth.

MS.

 

[Danidl]

I see that the leavers voted for the following reasons...
1. To not make any further payments to the EU
2. To stop free movement of people
3. Return law making to parliament and not be answerable to EU laws
4. A protest vote to ensure this government notices the poor situation of some people in the UK ,especially in the north of the U.K.

Well Thersa May has not had long on her EU negotiations but she seems to ignoring pretty much everything that the leavers voted for,is this abiding by the 'will of the people'
1. May,Davis and Boris have all said that the £350 million per week will not be forthcoming to the NHS.
2. May has admitted that free movement may have to continue in the transition phase,that could last 10 years.
3. May's Great Repeal Act will import EU law into the UK and her Henry 8 act will mean the government will filter those laws not parliament.
4. May and Hammond have made it very clear that they have no intention to listen to the protest vote,austerity will continue especially benefit cuts. The rise of food and fuel cost must make it tough on the poor,there doesn't seem any help for them to deal with Brexit.
If I was a Leaver I would be questioning what and where are we going for May seems to be the party of the rich,Brexit just camouflages this right wing Tory government.
In 2 years time I can see many saying what did we get out of our vote?
KudosDave

.. hi KudosDave, have you forgotten my request to you to identify the EU source which could allow the UK to recind their letter of secession?

 

[oldgroaner]

Lots of countries world wide have been equally if not more conflict free than Europe. The proliferation of Nuclear arms (MAD), the fact people are closer than pre WW2 ..come on how could we gobyo War with France or Spain, loads wouldn't know which side to fight for..The lessons we thought we,d learned in WW1 were reinforced in WW2..Thrre are a whole raft of reasons we,ve ( luckily) had peace but attributing that peace to EU is tenuos at best, and you make the claim with no objective reasoning. Its back to fostering and wishy washy thinking.
Anyhow my ski awaits..

You're rambling again, round and round you go, just make sure your ski isn't facing uphill theres a good fella.
Unless it's water ski of course, you wouldn't get any trouble from the sharks they tend to extend professional courtesy to deserving folk.

 

[Woosh]

Well in the long run you are correct, the sun SOL will fizzle out, the earth will freeze.

Are you sure? The sun is supposed to turn itself into a red giant star in about 5 bn years and the earth is going to be burnt into ashes.

 

[mountainsport]

Sorry all some men also like it rough or like it smooth it's not kind of me to be thinking one sided.

MS.