Brexit, for once some facts.

Woosh

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And you're seriously seriously suggesting the best way to control immigration (which is recognised by everyone as beneficial to us) is to trash our country so no one wants to come, and this now trashed country will be better for working people who voted leave.. how??
There is no need to trash anything.
You can reduce the osmotic pressure by artificially erecting barriers: insist on residency permit, health insurance, charge for long term visas etc.
We are an attractive country but we cannot afford to support each and everyone who likes to come here.
As for law making, we have had pretty good laws before we joined the EU and since, still contribute to the EU law making machine. There is no reason to assume that once we leave, we are going to make worse laws than before. Laws made by Westminster should also be naturally more suited to our people.
There is nothing illogical about what I said.
 
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Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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using childrens news to hopefully make it simple.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/newsid_2130000/newsid_2139000/2139071.stm

These are the five big things the EU has set out to do.

1. Promote economic and social progress.
Help people earn enough money and get treated fairly.

2. Speak for the European Union on the international scene.
By working as a group the EU hopes that Europe will be listened to more by other countries.

3. Introduce European citizenship.
Anyone from a member state is a citizen of the EU and gets four special rights.

4. Develop Europe as an area of freedom, security and justice.
Help Europeans to live in safety, without the threat of war.

5. Maintain and build on established EU law.
Make laws that protect peoples rights in the member countries.

I think they're achieving all of them aren't they??

Which of their aims do you think they are failing at our down right lying about?
That's brilliant..when I used to write lessons plans for kids unable to glean the enforced curriculum I,d use words like promote, foster, develop There,s nothing there KTM..one crime not committed, one family out of poverty trap, one country exceeding fiscal expectations. Social care targets achieved. That list of nothings would be shot down in flames at any successful organisation.
I asked what it had achieved. Fostering gowth with no yardtick, measures , calibration, validity, reliability or even numbers is at best superficial.
They really are poor objectives KTM. I,d have failed any inspection the minute line managers read those wishy washy statements.
Again, I,ll ask. What has EU achieved ?
Yep, a great road network in Northern Spain . The investment was supposed to lift communities. It did no such thing. The rich contractors benefited, paid under eu minimum wages, forgot EU safety rules , made loads of cash to invest In Majorca..and the roads or empty..Drive to Girona and back towards Pyrenees. Beautiful roads, not a pot hole in site..but virtually no tourists and still plenty of beggars, prositutes ( on road sides in high vis jackets !) and robberies.
Complete waste of money. Yes ,they,ve built the roads but what social objectives have been achieved. None.
I,ll concede raising UK learner limit to 15kw..gave learners another couple of bhp to play with..and raising pedelec limit to 250 from 200..but again both totally redundant. No kids in Spain,France or Italy follow 15kw limit,its ignored by most.( many ride with no insurance in all 3) and nobody but nobody takes any notice of the 250w limit. ( Reckon my certified Haibike is capable of double that..and continually with that damned badass gadget on it)
EU laws are a joke everywhere ..except here.
The EU cant even arrange common standards for driving tests, speeding fines,matriculation of vehicles or testing.( no MOT for motor bikes in France,unbelievable harsh rules for cars..but ignored. A Renault wife took for testing passed, no problems. I drove it following day..engine and gearbox mounts broken, exhaust blowing and brakes binding .It passed because examiner charges 200euro or so and he took a shine to wife..Thats in France..now imagine Greece. Its a complete and utter shambles.
 
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That's brilliant..when I used to write lessons plans for kids unable to glean the enforced curriculum I,d use words like promote, foster, develop There,s nothing there KTM..one crime not committed, one family out of poverty trap, one country exceeding fiscal expectations. Social care targets achieved. That list of nothings would be shot down in flames at any successful organisation.
I asked what it had achieved. Fostering gowth with no yardtick, measures , calibration, validity, reliability or even numbers is at best superficial.
They really are poor objectives KTM. I,d have failed any inspection the minute line managers read those wishy washy statements.
Again, I,ll ask. What has EU achieved ?
Yep, a great road network in Northern Spain . The investment was supposed to lift communities. It did no such thing. The rich contractors benefited, paid under eu minimum wages, forgot EU safety rules , made loads of cash to invest In Majorca..and the roads or empty..Drive to Girona and back towards Pyrenees. Beautiful roads, not a pot hole in site..but virtually no tourists and still plenty of beggars, prositutes ( on road sides in high vis jackets !) and robberies.
Complete waste of money. Yes ,they,ve built the roads but what social objectives have been achieved. None.
No... you asked which of their aims they had failed to achieve, I found their main 5 aims in a simple format. So if you think the EU is failing find me something they are failing at?

I just read this and thought of you guys, so here it is:

Only die-hard Leave ideologues can fail to see the truth now.

All the premises (read: lies) we voted Leave on have been dispelled:

There is no £350m for public services.

There is no immigration reduction because our economy needs it.

There is no sovereignty that was lost, 'it only felt like it'.

There is no collapsing EU as all member states are growing economically.

There is no 'swarm' of Turks massing on our borders, nor will there be.

There is no EU army to rival NATO or us.

There is no EU trade deal in two years, nor any non-EU deals as we leave.

There are only downsides to leaving:

A massive £MultiBillion divorce bill.

A massive risk to the break up of the United Kingdom.

A massive risk to economic downturn caused by tariffs, employees and industries turning away.

A massive risk to our inflation target as the plummeting £ makes our cost of living more expensive.

A massive risk to public services as foreign doctors and nurses leave or don't come here anymore.

A massive risk to a continued divided nation with increased hate crime and xenophobia.

A massive risk of a Tory inspired corporate low tax heaven with increased tax burden on ordinary people and less welfare and public services.

A massive risk that our children will never be able to work, live and travel easily and freely across our home continent and closest neighbours.

This is why democracy is a good thing. It's never 'one person, one vote, only once'.

We can change our minds.

Making a wrong judgement once in the absence of guidance is human, even natural, making it in the presence of contradictory truth is questionable.

Time to say we don't want this anymore. It's simply against our national and personal interest.
 

Zlatan

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 26, 2016
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Quick there Robdon..reckon it took you 3 seconds from me posting to you disliking. I dislike it too but its true. Every word.
KTM
Its exactly why EU is in a mess. Imagine Ford , Rolls Royce or even Education setting those statements out as attainable.
They do it so you can not prove they have failed but counter to that you cant prove they,ve had success.
I,ll ask again..What has EU ACHIEVED ?
 
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Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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No... you asked which of their aims they had failed to achieve, I found their main 5 aims in a simple format. So if you think the EU is failing find me something they are failing at?

I just read this and thought of you guys, so here it is:

Only die-hard Leave ideologues can fail to see the truth now.

All the premises (read: lies) we voted Leave on have been dispelled:

There is no £350m for public services.

There is no immigration reduction because our economy needs it.

There is no sovereignty that was lost, 'it only felt like it'.

There is no collapsing EU as all member states are growing economically.

There is no 'swarm' of Turks massing on our borders, nor will there be.

There is no EU army to rival NATO or us.

There is no EU trade deal in two years, nor any non-EU deals as we leave.

There are only downsides to leaving:

A massive £MultiBillion divorce bill.

A massive risk to the break up of the United Kingdom.

A massive risk to economic downturn caused by tariffs, employees and industries turning away.

A massive risk to our inflation target as the plummeting £ makes our cost of living more expensive.

A massive risk to public services as foreign doctors and nurses leave or don't come here anymore.

A massive risk to a continued divided nation with increased hate crime and xenophobia.

A massive risk of a Tory inspired corporate low tax heaven with increased tax burden on ordinary people and less welfare and public services.

A massive risk that our children will never be able to work, live and travel easily and freely across our home continent and closest neighbours.

This is why democracy is a good thing. It's never 'one person, one vote, only once'.

We can change our minds.

Making a wrong judgement once in the absence of guidance is human, even natural, making it in the presence of contradictory truth is questionable.

Time to say we don't want this anymore. It's simply against our national and personal interest.
Rubbish.
 
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oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
Society is a much more catholic grouping that the sordid faction you admire and imagine to be worthy.
I agree entirely OG and I believe it behoves all decent people to ensure that none of our people go hungry or live in poverty and squalor while others cannot see beyond the expansion of their personal wealth, frequently gained from the toil and industry of those less fortunate.

Robert Burns wrote these words 222 years ago but man's inhumanity to man continues today, sadly within this particular country to our shame.

Is there for honest Poverty
That hings his head, an' a' that;
The coward slave-we pass him by,
We dare be poor for a' that!
For a' that, an' a' that.
Our toils obscure an' a' that,
The rank is but the guinea's stamp,
The Man's the gowd for a' that.

What though on hamely fare we dine,
Wear hoddin grey, an' a that;
Gie fools their silks, and knaves their wine;
A Man's a Man for a' that:
For a' that, and a' that,
Their tinsel show, an' a' that;
The honest man, tho' e'ersae poor,
Is king o' men for a' that.

Ye see yon birkie, ca'd a lord,
Wha struts, an' stares, an' a' that;
Tho' hundreds worship at his word,
He's but a coof for a' that:
For a' that, an' a' that,
His ribband, star, an' a' that:
The man o' independent mind
He looks an' laughs at a' that.

A prince can mak a belted knight,
A marquis, duke, an' a' that;
Butan honest man's abon his might,
Gude faith, he maunnafa' that!
For a' that, an' a' that,
Their dignities an' a' that;
The pith o' sense, an' pride o' worth,
Are higher rank than a' that.

Then let us pray that come it may,
(As come it will for a' that,)
That Sense and Worth, o'er a' the earth,
Shall bear the gree, an' a' that.
For a' that, an' a' that,
It's coming yet for a' that,
That Man to Man, the world o'er,
Shall brothers be for a' that.

Tom
 
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Quick there Robdon..reckon it took you 3 seconds from me posting to you disliking. I dislike it too but its true. Every word.
KTM
Its exactly why EU is in a mess. Imagine Ford , Rolls Royce or even Education setting those statements out as attainable.
They do it so you can not prove they have failed but counter to that you cant prove they,ve had success.
I,ll ask again..What has EU ACHIEVED ?
You said the EU was failing in its Aims, so I deliberately chose a kids version of the aims to show you they weren't failing. You can't complain about the aims that are listed on Newsround.

You go and find a aim that the EU are failing at?

The EU has achieved lots.

Peace, easy trade etc etc I can go on and on and on.

So I ask you again, what have they failed at?
 
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Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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You said the EU was failing in its Aims, so I deliberately chose a kids version of the aims to show you they weren't failing. You can't complain about the aims that are listed on Newsround.

You go and find a aim that the EU are failing at?

The EU has achieved lots.

Peace, easy trade etc etc I can go on and on and on.

So I ask you again, what have they failed at?
That's a ridiculous circular argument. I,m saying they have achieved very little. If your business achieved so little it would have gone bankrupt. The ains you quoted are bot worth stating. You cant say when they have been achieved or not.
its like teaching someone to drive and saying you are fostering safer driving,interest in vehicles and interest in mending them...the acid test is passing the test..achieving something.

But if you wish, the EU has failed in uniting Europe, failed in redistribution of wealth, failed in lifting people out of poverty, failed in providing work, failed in having a coherent system of control on anything from Transport to Sea Law.

Now you tell me what they have achieved. ( Ok Luxembourg have got rich quick)
 
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That's a ridiculous circular argument. I,m saying they have achieved very little. If your business achieved so little it would have gone bankrupt. The ains you quoted are bot worth stating. You cant say when they have been achieved or not.
its like teaching someone to drive and saying you are fostering safer driving,interest in vehicles and interest in mending them...the acid test is passing the test..achieving something.

But if you wish, the EU has failed in uniting Europe, failed in redistribution of wealth, failed in lifting people out of poverty, failed in providing work, failed in having a coherent system of control on anything from Transport to Sea Law.

Now you tell me what they have achieved.
I've just given you two examples of things they have achieved - peace and trade, you must have missed that, here is a longer list:

Apart from: providing 57% of our trade; structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline; clean beaches and rivers; cleaner air; lead free petrol; restrictions on landfill dumping; a recycling culture; cheaper mobile charges; cheaper air travel; improved consumer protection and food labelling; a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives; better product safety; single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance; break up of monopolies; Europe-wide patent and copyright protection; no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market; price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone; freedom to travel, live and work across Europe; funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad; access to European health services; labour protection and enhanced social welfare; smoke-free workplaces; equal pay legislation; holiday entitlement; the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime; strongest wildlife protection in the world; improved animal welfare in food production; EU-funded research and industrial collaboration; EU representation in international forums; bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO; EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty; European arrest warrant; cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence; European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa; support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond; investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.

All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed. It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980. Now the union faces major challenges brought on by neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses. It is taking measures to overcome these. We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of £7bn out of total government expenditure of £695bn is good value. We must play a full part in enabling the union to be a force for good in a multipolar global future.
 
'Addressing MEPs near the start of the debate, Mr Verhofstadt said he believed Britain might return to the EU in the future, when a younger generation recognises Brexit as "a loss of time, a waste of energy and a stupidity". He described the Leave vote as "a catfight in the Conservative party that got out of hand".'
 

Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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I've just given you two examples of things they have achieved - peace and trade, you must have missed that, here is a longer list:

Apart from: providing 57% of our trade; structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline; clean beaches and rivers; cleaner air; lead free petrol; restrictions on landfill dumping; a recycling culture; cheaper mobile charges; cheaper air travel; improved consumer protection and food labelling; a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives; better product safety; single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance; break up of monopolies; Europe-wide patent and copyright protection; no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market; price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone; freedom to travel, live and work across Europe; funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad; access to European health services; labour protection and enhanced social welfare; smoke-free workplaces; equal pay legislation; holiday entitlement; the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime; strongest wildlife protection in the world; improved animal welfare in food production; EU-funded research and industrial collaboration; EU representation in international forums; bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO; EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty; European arrest warrant; cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence; European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa; support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond; investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.

All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed. It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980. Now the union faces major challenges brought on by neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses. It is taking measures to overcome these. We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of £7bn out of total government expenditure of £695bn is good value. We must play a full part in enabling the union to be a force for good in a multipolar global future.
Sorry KTM I don't agree with most of that.
 
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Jimod

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 9, 2010
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Polmont
Robert Burns wrote these words 222 years ago but man's inhumanity to man continues today, sadly within this particular country to our shame.

Is there for honest Poverty
That hings his head, an' a' that;
The coward slave-we pass him by,
We dare be poor for a' that!
For a' that, an' a' that.
Our toils obscure an' a' that,
The rank is but the guinea's stamp,
The Man's the gowd for a' that.

What though on hamely fare we dine,
Wear hoddin grey, an' a that;
Gie fools their silks, and knaves their wine;
A Man's a Man for a' that:
For a' that, and a' that,
Their tinsel show, an' a' that;
The honest man, tho' e'ersae poor,
Is king o' men for a' that.

Ye see yon birkie, ca'd a lord,
Wha struts, an' stares, an' a' that;
Tho' hundreds worship at his word,
He's but a coof for a' that:
For a' that, an' a' that,
His ribband, star, an' a' that:
The man o' independent mind
He looks an' laughs at a' that.

A prince can mak a belted knight,
A marquis, duke, an' a' that;
Butan honest man's abon his might,
Gude faith, he maunnafa' that!
For a' that, an' a' that,
Their dignities an' a' that;
The pith o' sense, an' pride o' worth,
Are higher rank than a' that.

Then let us pray that come it may,
(As come it will for a' that,)
That Sense and Worth, o'er a' the earth,
Shall bear the gree, an' a' that.
For a' that, an' a' that,
It's coming yet for a' that,
That Man to Man, the world o'er,
Shall brothers be for a' that.

Tom
I almost bought a haggis supper after reading that. ;)
 
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Zlatan

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 26, 2016
8,086
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ok, well pick one thing and prove me wrong then.
Lots of countries world wide have been equally if not more conflict free than Europe. The proliferation of Nuclear arms (MAD), the fact people are closer than pre WW2 ..come on how could we gobyo War with France or Spain, loads wouldn't know which side to fight for..The lessons we thought we,d learned in WW1 were reinforced in WW2..Thrre are a whole raft of reasons we,ve ( luckily) had peace but attributing that peace to EU is tenuos at best, and you make the claim with no objective reasoning. Its back to fostering and wishy washy thinking.
Anyhow my ski awaits..
 
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Lots of countries world wide have been equally if not more conflict free than Europe. The proliferation of Nuclear arms (MAD), the fact people are closer than pre WW2 ..come on how could we gobyo War with France or Spain, loads wouldn't know which side to fight for..The lessons we thought we,d learned in WW1 were reinforced in WW2..Thrre are a whole raft of reasons we,ve ( luckily) had peace but attributing that peace to EU is tenuos at best, and you make the claim with no objective reasoning. Its back to fostering and wishy washy thinking.
Anyhow my ski awaits..
Well you failed on that one didn't you.

We can argue about the cause of peace, but the end result is the same, peace.

You're supposed to be showing an aim that has been failed.

The aim for peace has been achieved.
 
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Zlatan

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 26, 2016
8,086
4,290
Well you failed on that one didn't you.

We can argue about the cause of peace, but the end result is the same, peace.

You're supposed to be showing an aim that has been failed.

The aim for peace has been achieved.
But not by EU...they don't even have a peace keeping force ? Are you really trying to tell.me had we not joined EU in 72 (?) we would have gone to war with France or Germany.
Europe had to unite in their military aims primarily because of cold war..NATO ,MAD and the might of USA has kept Europe relatively peaceful.
Tell me this had we not had NATO ,MAD and USA do you think we,d have kept peace within Europe with onlyEU...nope me neither.
 
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But not by EU...they don't even have a peace keeping force ? Are you really trying to tell.me had we not joined EU in 72 (?) we would have gone to war with France or Germany.
Europe had to unite in their military aims primarily because of cold war..NATO ,MAD and the might of USA has kept Europe relatively peaceful.
Tell me this had we not had NATO ,MAD and USA do you think we,d have kept peace within Europe with onlyEU...nope me neither.
OMG... I asked you to tell me which of the EU's aims hadn't been achieved? I don't care how it was achieved.
 

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