So now you don't know the difference between right and wrong and invoke some " politically correct"argument to defend it because you too have this wrong opinion?
It is provably wrong, not merely apparently so.
Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
- Start date
It is provably wrong, not merely apparently so.
Tom and OG
Its been my experience the very people who pressume to know better actually have either missed the salient points or have such limited experience they know no better.
We all understand your points, its not difficult to grasp. I don't think you know where UK stands globally, the extent if the global market, or the hash up the EU has made of so many issues, from migration to border control, from fiscal control to Sea law, from poverty to crime. The massive organisation the EU has become has done little to really help but lots to hinder.( Certainly in businesses I,ve had anything to do with in EU)
You talk about better working conditions and health and safety. You need to visit Northern Spain. Massive unemployment and H and S rules totally ignored. How is that progress ? Its same in Greece. And in meantime hundreds of MEPs negotiating and earning fortunes. Its a farce.
All those costs and expenses should be going to the needy you claim to represent. Instead they are lining the pockets of a totally unnecessary layer of government , doing little to actually help yet plenty to confuse...to justify their unnecessary existence.
Its been my experience the very people who pressume to know better actually have either missed the salient points or have such limited experience they know no better.
We all understand your points, its not difficult to grasp. I don't think you know where UK stands globally, the extent if the global market, or the hash up the EU has made of so many issues, from migration to border control, from fiscal control to Sea law, from poverty to crime. The massive organisation the EU has become has done little to really help but lots to hinder.( Certainly in businesses I,ve had anything to do with in EU)
You talk about better working conditions and health and safety. You need to visit Northern Spain. Massive unemployment and H and S rules totally ignored. How is that progress ? Its same in Greece. And in meantime hundreds of MEPs negotiating and earning fortunes. Its a farce.
All those costs and expenses should be going to the needy you claim to represent. Instead they are lining the pockets of a totally unnecessary layer of government , doing little to actually help yet plenty to confuse...to justify their unnecessary existence.
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Actually you seem to suffer Target Recognition problems, as you are describing the Westminster Muppet Show, not the EU.
It has been failing for years and blaming the EU for its shortcomings, which will shortly become very apparent when left to it's own devices and dark deeds.
No tillson that would be you.
Here it is again since you failed to read and understand the first time round
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It is astonishing that anyone could hold such a distorted view of reality as he came out with, but if you rely on propaganda without bothering to check how factual it is, this is the result.
It is after all less effort for those inclined to be lazy to believe the lies they keep being fed than to actually make the effort to find out the truth.
No one was called a fool, where they? and a possible cause for the holding such a wrong decision was offered, so how did you come out will this claprtrap of my comment being "Grotesque and arrogant"?
Do try to argue sensibly tillson.
Of course we are tillson,this is simply the cut and thrust of debate, sometimes it gets a little forthright, but we are both men with considerable experience of the world are we not?
But that's exactly the problem OG. You think the fools running EU are more likely to agree on something than you and I..you are the one being naive now.With you in the room who could be surprised it was hard to get three people to agree on anything! they were probably wishing they were somewhere else.
So America and China and any other large human grouping is doomed according to you?
I know this is a pretty revlutionary concept to grasp, but ALL HUMANS are basically the same, and there is no reason whatsover preventing progress to the point that in the end there will be a WORLD GOVERNMENT, a necessary step towards that being larger subgroups such as a United States of Europe.
Not merely necessary but inevitable, or humanity is doomed.
The EU is surplus control.
Its a layer of government stuck in to make fit with an older system. Its fundamentally flawed. The USA has not suddenly introduced another layer.
Countries need to hand over Governance ( ie Westminster) ) to EU..Cant ever work with local government, Country Government and then EU..The examples you quote have no such system. We are not united states of Europe. Never will be. France and Germany wouldn't hand total control over, let alone us. Its a pipe dream OG.....and you know it.
That's their own fault, it's what they are doing, corruption and mismanagement and nothing to do with the EU. Indeed the EU disapprove of their behaviour, which is why they've got tougher on them.
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But that's plain barmy flecc. Either they are in EU and get help and regulation or they aren't and they get neither. People make this argument all the time. When country does well, remainers credit that to EU and all it does. When it has elements failing, for what ever reason they blame Governments.How long does EU need to eliminate corruption, poverty ,social injustice etc etc..Its had 40 years and it hasn't even started, apart from places such as Luxembourg...I suspect social gaps have increased accross Europe in last 20 years, but you remainers hold EU up as championing social injustice when actually its policies have only served to worsen the divide. ( Compare Luxembourg with Spain now and 25 years ago, Spain has got poorer, Luxembourg richer..whilst operating under your glorious 4th Reich. You are the ones who have been conned. I,d prove it to you on a drive through Europe. Go look in Monaco..then go to Granada or.Girona ( Northern Spain) Go drive through Luxembourg.. Its quite ironic you hold EU up as championing underprivileged. The reverse is true.
What you are saying is the EU can pass all the correct legislation only for countries to totally ignore them if they wish....so what's point of having then in first place ? And you are right Spain and France ignore every EU law the feel like, so why have a layer of government we can ignore if we want. Its pointless but expensive.
I really think anyone who argues for EU and all it has done has little experience of what is going on on mainland Europe.
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What problems would those be 'tillson'? I was hoping for an intelligent or witty response but you produced neither.The problems begin
Don't you find it very sad that half the population is being dragged out of the European Union by the other half which includes all the fascist groups, the street thugs and the thickos, all to suit the extreme right wing of the tory party and the tax-avoiding billionaires and their tax-avoiding corporations, for the sole purpose of further personal wealth expansion?
Now, I'd call that a problem!
Tom
Good old Robdon..you didn't have time to read that, let alone think about it.
( with ref to dislike on.my previous post)
( with ref to dislike on.my previous post)
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I could easily answer that question by saying it is none of your business 'tillson' but as it seems to interest you and I have nothing to hide, I will tell you the truth: I have no other ID on this forum and do not post under any other avatar, if that's the right word for it.
There are others who post here about whom I have serious doubts but it really doesn't bother me if a stupid person chooses to post garbage under two or more different user names.
Were it someone else asking me, I'd ignore it but for you, I'm happy to respond as I know you are simply misguided and not stupid. I'm sure you will believe me.
Tom
Thank you for your explanation 'Woosh' I got the gist of it anyway from the rather poor translation from 'Google' or whichever one I have by default.
As for your concluding question, I can't see any problem - think the USA here. They have not 28 states but 50 and they are very disparate places in many ways, more so in some ways than our EU states.
The key is in the word, 'union', and that describes perfectly what the arrangement is; it is a group and will never be one single country so the analogy of the Unites States of America is a good one except that it makes sense for them to be identified as one single country - the Germans, French, Italians, etc will never wish to be denied their historic cultural heritage and identity so therein lies a difference but hey! Vive la différence!
The United States of Europe is a great concept and takes nothing away from the national character and identity of its constituent member states. On the contrary, it adds another dimension.
Tom
No, it is simply inevitable, remember how Germany consiste of over 35 states under all sorts of political systems.
The notion that single states can survive is proven by history to be a pipedream, they are always doomed to merge into larger states, as has happened in the UK
History is not on your side in this.
Brexit is just a dirt track off the main road of History, heading into a dead end. We will have to backtrack to return to progress along the highway to the future.
There is one truth you have mentioned, that there is a Surplus level of control, and it's here: the houses of parliament, which long ago ceased to be a benefit to the nation, only the rich.
You really shouldnt call the Brexit Voters Garbage, it isn't polite!
The USA has not introduced another layer of government, superimposed on top of its original..They have had almost same structure since 1777...
Europe is a group of disparate countries all with soveriegn control overseeing local governments. Sticking in another layer of governance and countries maintaining sovereignty simply can not work. One ir the other, probably but both cant..and why?
EU could only ever be united States of Europe if countries abandoned sovereignty and became States. The clue is in the word States. A state is not a Country, its more akin to a Shire in UK or region in France...and you know full well that's the case. Its a stupid futile argument.
Yes, if your desire us to give up Sovereignty and become State within Europe fine..but that ( in theory) was not EU's stated aim..but perhaps it was.
But its an important issue. Anybody with any knowledge knows full well eventually EU would have to have complete sovereign control,as in USA and to gain power to achieve things it hasn't in past 40 years..So staying in EU could only be beginning of slow but inevitable growth of EU power and inevitable decline in our having a say. And you Europhiles know that full well. Its why you are all so annoyed at Brexit. Your dreams of USoE are dead in the water.
OT but out of interest...
Look at time stamps for posts. Its very telling.( They are accessible on some pc's) !!!???
Europe is a group of disparate countries all with soveriegn control overseeing local governments. Sticking in another layer of governance and countries maintaining sovereignty simply can not work. One ir the other, probably but both cant..and why?
EU could only ever be united States of Europe if countries abandoned sovereignty and became States. The clue is in the word States. A state is not a Country, its more akin to a Shire in UK or region in France...and you know full well that's the case. Its a stupid futile argument.
Yes, if your desire us to give up Sovereignty and become State within Europe fine..but that ( in theory) was not EU's stated aim..but perhaps it was.
But its an important issue. Anybody with any knowledge knows full well eventually EU would have to have complete sovereign control,as in USA and to gain power to achieve things it hasn't in past 40 years..So staying in EU could only be beginning of slow but inevitable growth of EU power and inevitable decline in our having a say. And you Europhiles know that full well. Its why you are all so annoyed at Brexit. Your dreams of USoE are dead in the water.
OT but out of interest...
Look at time stamps for posts. Its very telling.( They are accessible on some pc's) !!!???
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No, only Tom's offerings OG. They make yours seem sensible...You really shouldnt call the Brexit Voters Garbage, it isn't polite!
But I,m out of here for a while. Got a business to get going in Tortola,BVI. Yachts and diving, unbelievable scenery, lots of sun and wind...and folk with lots of money in their pockets...and no EU stupid legislation. Wouldn't suit OG and Tom tho, folk are happy there.
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