Brexit, for once some facts.

[tillson]

Just replace 'EU' with 'UKIP' in your posting and you are on the button.
ie....UKIP has outlived its usefulness and has been the architect of its own downfall...... Hehe
KudosDave

Maybe, but UKIP's stated aim of taking the UK out of the EU is looking likely to be achieved. Once completed, I agree that unless UKIP find another campaign, their job will be done. Presently, they are very necessary to guard against backsliding by the government.

 

[tillson]

Actually I can think of lots of positive things to say about Brexit, lets see
In the short term

1. Europe will be rid of a major member that only paid half it's dues, lied ,cheated and undermined any progress
2. Europe will be free to form the USE and gain a large Army
3. There will be a trade boom in Europe in manufacturing and in Services too to replace things sourced in the UK

In the Long term

1. A failing economy and civil unrest here will undermine the "Little Englanders", who despite all evidence imagine that we are not part of Europe claiming we are propping it up at a loss to us.
   
2. Once again we will have to go cap in hand to join the EU, this time as a junior partner with no special privileges.

There you are , how could I be more positive than that?

All of this is guesswork and supposition form a person, who let's face it, has absolutely no inside knowledge or data on which to make these predictions. Add to this, a heavily biased negative attitude and a complete unwillingness to entertain the slightest notion of any positive aspect and the above is what arrive at, a meaningless account crippled by bias, negative obsession and an unwillingness to hear opposing views. You may as well have saved the wear and tear on your keyboard.

 

[tillson]

So if Theresa May does decide to make some payment how is she going to sell that to the Brexit Voters?
Good old Express, painting the Government into a corner to control it's policies?
Naughty, naughty!
I wonder what the "Will of the People" will make of it if she agrees to some payments?

She will sell it to me, a BREXIT voter, as a compromise during negotiations. In exchange for any payments agreed, she will get something in return. There would be no point in paying anything unless there is a gain. If nothing was offered, you would just walk away.

You see, you write things like this because you have absolutely no concept of compromise, mutual agreement or relinquishing demands in exchange for other benefits. You simply see things as all or nothing, the slightest negative accelerated exponentially to the point of disaster, with no consideration for any other outcome.

Your obsessed & unshakeable faith in the certain disaster of BREXIT undermines your opinions to the point of them taking on a certain comedy appeal. You seem a bit like Unlucky Alf, a character played by Paul Whitehouse on The Fast Show. Everything he touches turns to shite.

 

[oldgroaner]

1

BS. That is not the impression I get from speaking to a both immigrants who are here and considering coming here. Your claim is just typical shite spouted by remain supporters in a pathetic attempt to discredit BREXIT and those who support it.

You never learn to be civil do you?

 

[flecc]

BS. That is not the impression I get from speaking to a both immigrants who are here and considering coming here. Your claim is just typical shite spouted by remain supporters in a pathetic attempt to discredit BREXIT and those who support it.

I have to contradict you Tillson. We seen and heard a convoy of resident immigrants expressing genuine concern about their residency and travel status in a variety of TV news programs across the channels.

And only a few posts ago I drew attention to the way nursing job applications from the EU have fallen. From a typical over a 1000 a month before the referendum (over1300 in June), it's been rapidly falling and was a new low of some 100 in December.
.

 

[Kudoscycles]

would it fall foul of state aid rules? Perhaps we should do same here, around Felixstowe.

I don't think so,that system is pretty much how all my German distributors are housed. The local council provide the land free of charge,the trader has to build the warehouse/factory.....business rates are depended upon the area v No of employees,but at worst case they are 10% than the UK.
I pay about £60,000 business rates on my warehouse,my German distributor has a garage/warehouse/retail shop ,he pays about 8000 euros.,it's total area is about half mine,he has a similar No of employees.
Building in Germany is cheap,they bring steel in from Hungary and they have a well organised modular system.
It's not painful moving to Germany,the local council help a lot.....quite the contrast to our UK councils who seem more concerned as to how big they can rip you off for business rates,they are not interested in creating employment.
KudosDave

 

[oldgroaner]

She will sell it to me, a BREXIT voter, as a compromise during negotiations. In exchange for any payments agreed, she will get something in return. There would be no point in paying anything unless there is a gain. If nothing was offered, you would just walk away.

You see, you write things like this because you have absolutely no concept of compromise, mutual agreement or relinquishing demands in exchange for other benefits. You simply see things as all or nothing, the slightest negative accelerated exponentially to the point of disaster, with no consideration for any other outcome.

Your obsessed & unshakeable faith in the certain disaster of BREXIT undermines your opinions to the point of them taking on a certain comedy appeal. You seem a bit like Unlucky Alf, a character played by Paul Whitehouse on The Fast Show. Everything he touches turns to shite.

Dont be a complete idiot all the time! most of my working life was spent negotiating deals with dissatisfied customers some of whom were pretty clever people and some who were at times even slower on the uptake than you can be.

We always reached a conclusion that satisfied both parties. Which means that I had to develop the ability to suffer fools gladly at times and compromise.

And by the way your cause isn't helped by a combination of a pompous attitude and vulgar remarks.

Interesting that you imagine I am "obsessed" when in fact I am willing to listen to a reasoned argument in Favour of Brexit.

Alas I have to accept that after all this time the chance of hearing one is a big Zero.
Still under the caveat I have expressed, I welcome your comments .

 

[Kudoscycles]

BS. That is not the impression I get from speaking to a both immigrants who are here and considering coming here. Your claim is just typical shite spouted by remain supporters in a pathetic attempt to discredit BREXIT and those who support it.

I don't know who you talk to but immigrants are in demand down in the south east to fill the jobs that Brits don't have the skills to do or don't want to do. Our farmers rely on immigrants to do the fruit picking,they are so short of labour that they are considering offering jobs to prisoners who are not at risk of running. My father in law was in my local hospital and the staff,mainly Indian and Portuguse/Spanish are really concerned that they are no longer welcome here,they hate Theresa May and Hunt.
The big construction jobs in London have real employment shortages,a lot of the Poles are going home because they see no long term future here and anyway the weakness of the £ is reducing their wages when exchanged into euros....God knows how this government are going to meet their home building targets without skilled workers.
The German lady on question time married to a Brit with kids born here ,been in the UK for 20 plus years,was very emotional about the difficulties of getting her residency approved,it appears the home office is being purposely obstructive.
The stress we are causing EU migrants,people who have established the UK as their home,paying taxes here,working to the benefit of us all,is making this government hated amongst the UK/EU citizens.
Norman Tebbitt showed his true colours as an aged xenophobic racist by calling them 'foreigners' in the Lords,no doubt IDS and Rees-Mogg have similar attitudes. When this lot of fascist right wingers are dead our children and grand children will look back on this period as a period when there elders had awful attitudes that have blighted their futures.
So Tillson before you start calling others 'shite' look at the damage that Brexit is causing,I am sure you would be the first to complain if your local hospital has to close because we no longer have migrant workers to look after us. Brits have always been thought of as a selfish arrogant lot when we travel abroad,Brexit is just confirming they are right.
KudosDave

 

[tillson]

1

You never learn to be civil do you?

......and claiming that people vote in a certain way are idiots, fools and too thick to realise what they are voting for is civil is it? I suppose it must be in the tunnel vision, blinkered & uncompromising world of OG.

 

[tillson]

I have to contradict you Tillson. We seen and heard a convoy of resident immigrants expressing genuine concern about their residency and travel status in a variety of TV news programs across the channels.

And only a few posts ago I drew attention to the way nursing job applications from the EU have fallen. From a typical over a 1000 a month before the referendum (over1300 in June), it's been rapidly falling and was a new low of some 100 in December.
.

That's not the impression I get, but I have to say that the sample size of people who I have spoken to is small by comparison to the number of immigrants in the UK . If there is any "fear" it concerns a future lack of opportunity to work in the UK, not fears over hostility, being forced to leave the country or being made to feel unwelcome. In the meantime, I think people are just getting on with whatever they do.

I think in general, ordinary people of all nations have a common aim and that is to do the best they can for themselves and their families and have no desire to enter into hostility or conflict with other countries.

 

[oldtom]

I'd love to see it happen, Ireland should never have been partitioned.
.

Absolutely 'flecc'!

A united Ireland and perhaps an independent Scotland would probably do very well as EU states. Neither country, free of WMD, would represent a threat to any other states yet could play a part in attracting inward investment in both people and revenue. It is likely that both would be nett beneficiaries within the EU but when one considers that Malta has no natural resources and exports zilch, then why not Scotland and NI?

If the Westminster government wishes to isolate England and Wales from the EU, then I don't see why the Scots and Irish should be forced to accept that circumstance if they'd prefer not to. Gibraltar is another consideration which has simply been ignored by the government.

If the government were to announce tomorrow that no more professional footballers or coaches will be permitted to come and work in the UK, the calls for this whole 'Brexit' nonsense to be aborted would be irrepressible.

Of course that's a silly point to make but it's not as if we couldn't find British workers with adequate qualifications and skills to take up all the posts in football. We don't actually need immigrants to provide the spectacle of football in all the fancy stadiums we have built thanks to inward investment from.........mostly non-resident oligarchs from the middle-east, Russia and various tax havens around the globe.

The quality of the football might not be the best but it would still be competitive, unlike the UK after 'Brexit'.

Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

......and claiming that people vote in a certain way are idiots, fools and too thick to realise what they are voting for is civil is it? I suppose it must be in the tunnel vision, blinkered & uncompromising world of OG.

And when did I call them any of those things tillson?

Throughout I have claimed they have been misled and mistaken, the rest is in your strange imagination, your own words indeed, and you are simply denying the obvious truth by saying "they knew what they voted for" when the reality is that they only imagined that they did without bothering to check the facts.
They didn't even know the Referendum was "Advisory only" remember?

There is nothing blinkered about me, I see the obvious, you should try it some time.

 

[oldtom]

I think in general, ordinary people of all nations have a common aim and that is to do the best they can for themselves and their families and have no desire to enter into hostility or conflict with other countries.

That's why there was no war in 1914 and no war in 1939.....! The ordinary people managed to persuade their political leaders that war would be a bad thing and in nobody's interest.

The EU has been spectacularly successful in creating an atmosphere of mutual trust and co-operation between a disparate group of mainland European countries which has brought about the longest spell of peace in Europe with only one or two aberrations, (painful as they were), in over half a century, possibly ever!

Can you not see the importance of that 'tillson'?

Tom

 

[tillson]

Dont be a complete idiot all the time! most of my working life was spent negotiating deals with dissatisfied customers some of whom were pretty clever people and some who were at times even slower on the uptake than you can be.

You see OG, there you go again defaulting to the level of insults when you have lost the argument. I was merely pointing out the innate negativity which oozes from every syllable you write. Such is the frequency of these outpourings of pessimism that I sincerely believe that you have no inclination of it happening. It is as though you have become anaesthetised to the relentless serial forecasting of ruination. The unattractive mocking of newspaper headlines we see each and every morning. The flip-flop attitude demonstrated toward newspapers, one day they are full of pro BREXIT lies, the next the same publication is telling bad news BREXT truths. How are we to take you as being credible?

 

[oldgroaner]

I think in general, ordinary people of all nations have a common aim and that is to do the best they can for themselves and their families and have no desire to enter into hostility or conflict with other countries.

By and large that is true, but falls down for a voiciferous minority who seem to scream for blood whenever they see the opportunity to commit acts of aggression in the middle east as we have been doing.

 

[flecc]

I think in general, ordinary people of all nations have a common aim and that is to do the best they can for themselves and their families and have no desire to enter into hostility or conflict with other countries.

Indeed, that is what the ordinary people want, but their leaders are a different matter. They are the ones who make the big mistakes, create the disputes and wars, then let the mass of the people suffer all the consequences.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

You see OG, there you go again defaulting to the level of insults when you have lost the argument. I was merely pointing out the innate negativity which oozes from every syllable you write. Such is the frequency of these outpourings of pessimism that I sincerely believe that you have no inclination of it happening. It is as though you have become anaesthetised to the relentless serial forecasting of ruination. The unattractive mocking of newspaper headlines we see each and every morning. The flip-flop attitude demonstrated toward newspapers, one day they are full of pro BREXIT lies, the next the same publication is telling bad news BREXT truths. How are we to take you as being credible?

I responded to this comment of yours
"You see, you write things like this because you have absolutely no concept of compromise, mutual agreement or relinquishing demands in exchange for other benefits. You simply see things as all or nothing, the slightest negative accelerated exponentially to the point of disaster, with no consideration for any other outcome.
Which was quite simply idiotic, and since it isn't the first time you have come out with this sort of thing asked to stop being idiotic for a change.
Not so much an insult as Fair comment, after all you had insulted my integrity, as you do at every opportunity, and I rarely bother to respond, but it was getting repetitious.

Do give over tillson, if you puff yourself up much more you may burst at the stiching, great prose though "innate negativity which oozes from every syllable" for sensible caution for example, and "Such is the frequency of these outpourings of pessimism that I sincerely believe that you have no inclination of it happening." for English readers than means "Consistant attitude"
And the icing on the cake
"The unattractive mocking of newspaper headlines we see each and every morning. The flip-flop attitude demonstrated toward newspapers, one day they are full of pro BREXIT lies, the next the same publication is telling bad news BREXT truths. "
Don't you realise that is simply reporting verbatim their message?
And finally
"How are we to take you as being credible?"
As a suggestion stop being so negative to any criticism of this Brexit Fetish that has hooked you?
I try to warn you of Danger, but you won't see it will you?

 

[tillson]

I don't know who you talk to but immigrants are in demand down in the south east to fill the jobs that Brits don't have the skills to do or don't want to do. Our farmers rely on immigrants to do the fruit picking,they are so short of labour that they are considering offering jobs to prisoners who are not at risk of running. My father in law was in my local hospital and the staff,mainly Indian and Portuguse/Spanish are really concerned that they are no longer welcome here,they hate Theresa May and Hunt.
The big construction jobs in London have real employment shortages,a lot of the Poles are going home because they see no long term future here and anyway the weakness of the £ is reducing their wages when exchanged into euros....God knows how this government are going to meet their home building targets without skilled workers.
The German lady on question time married to a Brit with kids born here ,been in the UK for 20 plus years,was very emotional about the difficulties of getting her residency approved,it appears the home office is being purposely obstructive.
The stress we are causing EU migrants,people who have established the UK as their home,paying taxes here,working to the benefit of us all,is making this government hated amongst the UK/EU citizens.
Norman Tebbitt showed his true colours as an aged xenophobic racist by calling them 'foreigners' in the Lords,no doubt IDS and Rees-Mogg have similar attitudes. When this lot of fascist right wingers are dead our children and grand children will look back on this period as a period when there elders had awful attitudes that have blighted their futures.
So Tillson before you start calling others 'shite' look at the damage that Brexit is causing,I am sure you would be the first to complain if your local hospital has to close because we no longer have migrant workers to look after us. Brits have always been thought of as a selfish arrogant lot when we travel abroad,Brexit is just confirming they are right.
KudosDave

I am not denying the benefits that immigration brings to areas of our society where a need for certain skills exists. I am saying that the few immigrants and potential immigrants that I have spoke to do not feel unwelcome or put off from coming to the UK. The overriding concern which came through was one of diminishing opportunities to work and live in the UK post BREXIT. That is something completely different.

Some sections of the UK population do behave very badly when travelling abroad and their behaviour is shameful. That however, has nothing to do with BREXIT and your unsatisfactory attempt to hitch thuggish behaviour onto BREXIT is pitiable. It is also a good marker indicating that you have no sound argument other than to make groundless attempts to discredit.

 

[oldtom]

This clip of Bertrand Russell from 1959 could be applied perfectly to the 'Brexit' situation and particularly to those intent on dragging the UK out of the EU against the wishes of the majority of UK residents:

Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

It is also a good marker indicating that you have no sound argument other than to make groundless attempts to discredit.

A perfect self descriptive there tillson, well done