Brexit, for once some facts.

[Woosh]

it still is a simple, principle question.
The rest will have to be dealt with by our intelligent, educated MPs after the next election.
I'd like to see Mrs May Groucho Marx moment.
http://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-faces-groucho-marx-moment/

as he walks away from the table. “If I were you, I wouldn’t pay it.”

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

it still is a simple, principle question.
The rest will have to be dealt with by our intelligent, educated MPs after the next election.

The intelligent, educated MPs who didn't want this to happen you mean? The vast majority of the Government, Parliament and Lords, all thought this was a bad idea.

 

[Woosh]

The vast majority of the Government, Parliament and Lords, all thought this was a bad idea.

they may think that, I can't possibly comment.

However, they can make it work.

 

[flecc]

Reduction in smoking is much more of a WHO than EU project and taxes on cigarettes are higher in the UK than the other side of the Channel.

Another indication that the EU "interference" isn't excessive. The regulation of smoking is left entirely as a national government matter, the same with alcohol consumption and illegal substance use.

The complaints about EU unnecessary interference are almost entirely unjustified. The EU regulations are broadly to ensure an internal level playing field for trade, to ensure cross border access and compatibility and to ensure fair and just treatment of all the EU's citizens.
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[Woosh]

The complaints about EU unnecessary interference are almost entirely unjustified.

I have never complained about EU market interference (except I think small businesses do get hurt by the EU), or environmental, only political interference: defense, foreign policy, border control, fiscal union, majority voting, this sort of things.

 

[flecc]

I have never complained about EU market interference (except I think small businesses do get hurt by the EU), or environmental, only political interference: defense, foreign policy, border control, fiscal union, majority voting, this sort of things.

Defence is clearly a common interest, but I'm unaware there is interference in that. Each country makes its own decisions on what arms to have, the only interference being NATO from the USA, not EU.

Inter EU country border control doesn't exist since the EU is a single market, which means freedom of movement for goods and people. But each country does have control of anyone undesirable and the ability to expel them.

A degree of foreign policy has to be regulated for a single market union, that is unavoidable.

Fiscal union isn't compulsory at present, but it is desirable for a single market. There's nothing wrong with the principle, only the implementation. If we'd joined the EU properly instead of obstructing on the sidelines, we could have been a major influence in getting that right.
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[anotherkiwi]

OK so you don't want to pay the exit bill, fine. What will that lead to? No more health care for expats living on this side, No more benefits for expats in the EU. No more whatever else that sum was to cover. It isn't a fine, it is a sum to cover costs to the EU for a decision the UK has made. Why should the EU have to foot the bill for your decision?

 

[Danidl]

I still remember road signs in different shape, size, colour. You could instantly recognize in which country they were used. Now, roads, towns, cities look the same, people wear the same sort of clothes. Even restaurants get uniformized. Sad or I am too old?

I still find there is sufficient diversity in the street furniture road signage , road markings and particularly the ways of constructing junctions that there is no difficulty.
In particular I admire the way the French mark directions to villages .. using two signs at 45 degree on both verges.its unambiguous. I also like the way they arrange exits for traffic going left .. against the flow. Much better than a roundabout., But. Expensive on real estate.

 

[Danidl]

Yes, but there is a lot of identity left to preserve.
Why is it so wrong to attempt to reduce political interference getting too much into trade and cooperation?

... I believe that the EU has been more sensitive to regional cultures than national governments, perhaps because it is less threatened by them. If you define culture Inc terms of language, dance, music , habitats then the EU has a good record.
On the other hand the EU has been good at enforcement in engineering related areas . Can you remember when you were instructed to buy bottled water in France, Spain because the tap water was considered suspect , or when the electric fittings in cheap hotels were dodgy, interesting and of indeterminate voltage.? When you can be sure of a reliable stable voltage, this pays in reduced manufacturing costs

 

[Woosh]

OK so you don't want to pay the exit bill, fine. What will that lead to? No more health care for expats living on this side, No more benefits for expats in the EU. No more whatever else that sum was to cover. It isn't a fine, it is a sum to cover costs to the EU for a decision the UK has made. Why should the EU have to foot the bill for your decision?

It seems that Michel Barnier intends on maximizing the bill rather than seeking to cover the future pension costs of UK citizens employed by the EU.
What does it lead to? Hard brexit, that's for sure.
The health care provision concerns mainly about 400,000 UK pensioners living mostly in Spain which is paid for by UK government, I can't see that changed.
The rest, UK citizens working in the EU, are covered by local provisions.
About other remaining benefits (job seekers and housing), my guess it's left to the local authorities to decide, the exit bill has nothing to do with them.
If you want to know who pushes for hard brexit, it's not the idiots like Rees Mogg, it is the EU top civil servants.

 

[Danidl]

It seems that Michel Barnier intends on maximizing the bill rather than seeking to cover the future pension costs of UK citizens employed by the EU.
What does it lead to? Hard brexit, that's for sure.
The health care provision concerns mainly about 400,000 UK pensioners living mostly in Spain which is paid for by UK government, I can't see that changed.
The rest, UK citizens working in the EU, are covered by local provisions.
About other remaining benefits (job seekers and housing), my guess it's left to the local authorities to decide, the exit bill has nothing to do with them.
If you want to know who pushes for hard brexit, it's not the idiots like Rees Mogg, it is the EU top civil servants.

... I doubt whether there are any EU civil servants who want a hard brexit, their preference is no brexit. Any way it is not just the pensions that are in play what about the E111 Medical treatment card, the agreements which the UK made towards infrastructure, the joint projects, even something as local as the bridge over narrow water a bridge linking co Louth and county Down which has EU UK I ROI implications and resonances to the recent troubles.

 

[Woosh]

I doubt whether there are any EU civil servants who want a hard brexit,

actually, it was Donald Tusk who said the alternative of hard brexit is no brexit.
It is not just Mr Tusk, Verhofstadt said more or less the same. Barnier may be a little more subtle but the common view from the EU side is to ask for as much money as possible.
This shows that the EU wanted hard brexit because once A50 is triggered, the ball is truly in the EU's court. The UK can only do a Groucho Marx.

Any way it is not just the pensions that are in play what about the E111 Medical treatment card,

The cost of E111: they are reciprocal agreement, each participant country pays for the cost of emergency treatment for their citizens, so I think it will stay.
S1, S2 and S3 are also reciprocal.

 

[oldgroaner]

Nothing to do with that.
This whole saga started with one simple question.
There is no way one can predict how long it will take to negotiate a new relationship with the EU but I think we can agree that it's more than 2 years.
Let's see this leaving the EU sorted then a future government will deal with the consequences.

No, lets act like rational human beings and drop the whole ludicrous idea of leaving the EU

 

[oldgroaner]

they may think that, I can't possibly comment.

However, they can make it work.

Slight error there replace can with "Can't" to restore accuracy to the statement.

 

[flecc]

Barnier may be a little more subtle but the common view from the EU side is to ask for as much money as possible.
This shows that the EU wanted hard brexit

I don't think that's the implication, I think it's simply positioning in the same way that selling operates. Start by proposing the highest conceivable figure and then negotiate from there.

The EU starting from a lower figure would be a self-inflicted disadvantage, leading to a lower final settlement. I'm betting that the final figure will be 40 billions with a three to five year spread for payment, since for affordability the spread will be as important as the actual amount.
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[oldgroaner]

Let's face it the People like the man at question time made a huge error in misunderstanding the nature of the Government of the UK
He thought it would make changes to improve his life.
How could anyone be naive enough to believe that after their track record?
Indeed how could he imagine that any of the other parties in the situation his vote has placed them do any better?
He is wishing for the Moon.
And is heading for a "Bigly" disappointment of epic proportions

 

[Woosh]

drop the whole ludicrous idea of leaving the EU

you can't say it's ludicrous because although the split is practically in the middle, there is still a very substantial majority in England for brexit, and let's face it, even if the union breaks because of brexit, the majority in England will still want out.

 

[Woosh]

He thought it would make changes to improve his life

it is possible in a few years.

 

[oldgroaner]

you can't say it's ludicrous because although the split is practically in the middle, there is still a very substantial majority in England for brexit, and let's face it, even if the union breaks because of brexit, the majority in England will still want out.

And that doesn't strike you as utterly ludicrous?
Crikey what does it take? it merely points to the fact that we should not be commiting ourseles to this one way ticket to a disaster without a much more meanigful vote than 52 to 48%, and that of the 21% that bothered to vote.
That is a SUBSTANTIAL majority?
Never in a million years
Farage said that only a 2 to 1 vote against leaving the EU would kill the issue, and frankly for once I agree. this is so serious it needs a far more emphatic and convincing support than this piffling percentage.
This is a travesty.

 

[flecc]

it is possible in a few years.

The UK economy when completely out of the EU is like Schrodingers cat. We won't know it's status until the box is opened, when it could still be alive or be dead.
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