Brexit, for once some facts.

[oyster]

There were plenty of other missiles and cluster bomb carriers display over the last few months. Many in bits , many with the cluster compartment s ..like egg cartons visible and exposed The majority of the missiles ..as opposed to aircraft delivered bombs, will presumably be lightweight structures.. probably aluminium ,or tinplate .. otherwise they don't have the range. Once the propellents have been used up they become gliders . So perhaps the images are authentic..

I've certainly read a number of articles which have clearly discussed whether some images and videos are exactly as presented - or not.

I suspect that were there loads of faked missile-has-landed shots, they would have been called out many times over.

 

[guerney]

@oyster There's some discussion about shingles on the Covid thread, which might be of interest. Here's a link to the latest post:

Cycling. Health. Covid. Diet.

If this works (better than the vaccines)... and if other organs can be treated - immortality for those who can afford it? https://www.business-standard.com/article/international/covid-mrna-tech-may-create-first-ever-cure-for-heart-attacks-uk-scientists-122041600196_1.html

www.pedelecs.co.uk

 

[Mrs Honeyman]

There were plenty of other missiles and cluster bomb carriers display over the last few months. Many in bits , many with the cluster compartment s ..like egg cartons visible and exposed The majority of the missiles ..as opposed to aircraft delivered bombs, will presumably be lightweight structures.. probably aluminium ,or tinplate .. otherwise they don't have the range. Once the propellents have been used up they become gliders . So perhaps the images are authentic..

Your description of the missile fits my experience. Such a lightweight structure wouldn’t penetrate tarmac surface and the packed stone bed to such depth without sustaining distortion, damage or complete destruction. The images on BBC looked like display exhibits mounted in the ground.

I have a Ukrainian friend who I run with. She was telling me yesterday that her family think Zelensky is a showman clown and that Russia is reacting to the West (NATO / EU) expanding right up to their border. A bit like America would react if say Mexico decided to rely on Russia for its defences and allowed them to have a military presence there.

Just a thought.

 

[flecc]

I have a Ukrainian friend who I run with. She was telling me yesterday that her family think Zelensky is a showman clown and that Russia is reacting to the West (NATO / EU) expanding right up to their border. A bit like America would react if say Mexico decided to rely on Russia for its defences and allowed them to have a military presence there.

Exactly what I was arguing from the outset, but unfortunately unpopularly in this thread where most just swallow the western propaganda.

And of course the Mexico possibility you mention we've already experienced with Cuba and the Russian missile crisis.

Thanks to Zelensky and his ilk, together with America's NATO idiocy, we are running a severe risk of setting off WW3 while wrecking the economies of Europe, including the UK.

All of that could have been made impossible as far back as in the 1990s, but for the USA's ignorant, pig headed interference in Europe's affairs.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

I am assured not - before the NIMH was established in 1864, it was a loose affiliation of herbalists/witches... They're a strange bunch, within which witchery is rife! They claim to know all sorts of very strange things. I'm not convinced that many of them are actually sane. They hold an annual conference where much cackling occurs.

Like the Conservative party annual conference?

 

[oldgroaner]

Your description of the missile fits my experience. Such a lightweight structure wouldn’t penetrate tarmac surface and the packed stone bed to such depth without sustaining distortion, damage or complete destruction. The images on BBC looked like display exhibits mounted in the ground.

I have a Ukrainian friend who I run with. She was telling me yesterday that her family think Zelensky is a showman clown and that Russia is reacting to the West (NATO / EU) expanding right up to their border. A bit like America would react if say Mexico decided to rely on Russia for its defences and allowed them to have a military presence there.

Just a thought.

No excuse for Russia to invade is it?
take that comment from her family with a pinch of salt from the Russian salt mines.

 

[oldgroaner]

Exactly what I was arguing from the outset, but unfortunately unpopularly in this thread where most just swallow the western propaganda.

And of course the Mexico possibility you mention we've already experienced with Cuba and the Russian missile crisis.

Thanks to Zelensky and his ilk, together with America's NATO idiocy, we are running a severe risk of setting off WW3 while wrecking the economies of Europe, including the UK.

All of that could have been made impossible as far back as in the 1990s, but for the USA's ignorant, pig headed interference in Europe's affairs.
.

No excuse for Russia invading other countries and committing mass murder of civilians is it?
And not the first time using their bogus fear of NATO to do it either.

 

[oyster]

Another interesting development which should affect Johnson (and others):

Michelle Mone’s home raided as PPE firm linked to Tory peer investigated
NCA launches investigation into PPE Medpro, which secured £200m in Covid contracts

Michelle Mone’s home raided as PPE firm linked to Tory peer investigated

NCA launches investigation into PPE Medpro, which secured £200m in Covid contracts

www.theguardian.com

 

[flecc]

No excuse for Russia invading other countries and committing mass murder of civilians is it?
And not the first time using their bogus fear of NATO to do it either.

Like there's no excuse for the USA invading other countries and committing mass murder of civilians using far worse methods like napalm and agent orange. And they've illegally invaded other countries far more frequently.

Little wonder Russia's fear of NATO is genuine, given the US record of not just those wars but of a seven decade long ambition to destroy the Russian state. Just like the ruthless way they destroyed Europe's empires as you know.

Those who knowingly provoke a war are just as guilty of the outcome as those who ultimately wage it.
.

 

[oyster]

Like there's no excuse for the USA invading other countries and committing mass murder of civilians using far worse methods like napalm and agent orange. And they've illegally invaded other countries far more frequently.

Little wonder Russia's fear of NATO is genuine, given the US record of not just those wars but of a seven decade long ambition to destroy the Russian state. Just like the ruthless way they destroyed Europe's empires as you know.

Those who knowingly provoke a war are just as guilty of the outcome as those who ultimately wage it.
.

On the other hand, what did NATO and the west do when Russia waged war in Georgia, Chechnya and Syria? Russia was pretty much untroubled.

 

[flecc]

On the other hand, what did NATO and the west do when Russia waged war in Georgia, Chechnya and Syria? Russia was pretty much untroubled.

All not in any way relevant to what I posted.

Chechnya was an entirely internal matter since it was wholly part of the Russian state engaged in internal Islamic terrorism.

Being in Syria was at the request of the lawful government of that country, asking for help. NATO couldn't act since we were both fighting ISIS there so we were inadvertant allies. That was the tangle NATO had got itself into there by unlawfully taking the side of an internal rebellion against the lawful government, using the fictitious Arab Spring excuse. An equivalent for us would have been NATO helping the IRA in their fight for freedom from UK rule.

The US couldn't use NATO in Georgia since all were so well aware of the scale of their guilt in causing that war. In their attempts to get Georgia into both the EU and NATO, they flooded that small country with large numbers of Americans. They were engaged in a huge range of activities which left no doubt as to America's anti-Russian intentions.
.

 

[Mrs Honeyman]

No excuse for Russia to invade is it?
take that comment from her family with a pinch of salt from the Russian salt mines.

It’s not an excuse to invade another country. To take the first steps and initiate an invasion isn’t right.

If the west / NATO / EU hadn’t entertain the notion of the Ukraine joining their ranks, I don’t believe Russia would have invaded. The relatively peaceful situation would have continued. As it is, a war has now started. Who knows where it will end?

 

[guerney]

I don't know about anyone else, but the elevated probability of nuclear armageddon is starting to make me wish that Ukraine would surrender...

 

[jonathan.agnew]

All not in any way relevant to what I posted.

Chechnya was an entirely internal matter since it was wholly part of the Russian state engaged in internal Islamic terrorism.

Being in Syria was at the request of the lawful government of that country, asking for help. NATO couldn't act since we were both fighting ISIS there so we were inadvertant allies. That was the tangle NATO had got itself into there by unlawfully taking the side of an internal rebellion against the lawful government, using the fictitious Arab Spring excuse. An equivalent for us would have been NATO helping the IRA in their fight for freedom from UK rule.

The US couldn't use NATO in Georgia since all were so well aware of the scale of their guilt in causing that war. In their attempts to get Georgia into both the EU and NATO, they flooded that small country with large numbers of Americans. They were engaged in a huge range of activities which left no doubt as to America's anti-Russian intentions.
.

The asad dictatorship has never been a lawful government.

 

[flecc]

The asad dictatorship has never been a lawful government.

It was and still is the lawful government of Syria, and by Middle Eastern standards a very reasonable one. That showed all too well when a number of the Shia majority rose up against the Sunni minority government, since half the Shia population not only refused to side with them, they sided with and fought for the Assad Sunni government against the rebels.

There could hardly have been a better demonstration of the legitimacy of the ruling government than so many Shia siding with Sunni against fellow Shia.
.

 

[Woosh]

If the west / NATO / EU hadn’t entertain the notion of the Ukraine joining their ranks, I don’t believe Russia would have invaded. The relatively peaceful situation would have continued. As it is, a war has now started. Who knows where it will end?

it wasn't that long ago that the West were even looking into Russia joining the EU and NATO.
What/where would the world be if Putin did not happen and Russia did just that?

 

[flecc]

it wasn't that long ago that the West were even looking into Russia joining the EU and NATO.
What/where would the world be if Putin did not happen and Russia did just that?

Ukraine would be trying to join both too, and we'd all be looking forward to an American led future WW3 against China.

While any form of communism exists and the USA has any power, there will never be peace. It isn't Russia we need to isolate to gain peace, it's the USA.
.

 

[Woosh]

While any form of communism exists and the USA has any power, there will never be peace.

I disagree. Cuba is only next door, communist and lives in peace.
If WW3 happens with China, the probable cause is unemployment in the USA caused by cheap Chinese goods.

 

[flecc]

I disagree. Cuba is only next door, communist and lives in peace.

Too small and too unlikely to spread the doctrine to count.

It's the threat of the spread of communism the USA cannot accept, hence their mistrust of Russia and North Korea, their wars in Korea and Vietnam and their growing disaffection with China today.
.

 

[Danidl]

It’s not an excuse to invade another country. To take the first steps and initiate an invasion isn’t right.

If the west / NATO / EU hadn’t entertain the notion of the Ukraine joining their ranks, I don’t believe Russia would have invaded. The relatively peaceful situation would have continued. As it is, a war has now started. Who knows where it will end?

As long as Ukraine remained a compliant stooge of the Russian superstate, it was safe from invasion. But going back to 2010 , or even a little earlier, Ukraine themselves started looking Westward. The then ruling Party had as it's election manifesto that it would sign up a trade deal with the EU. This was OK with the electorate and they got voted in on foot of this proposal. Then just before the deal was to be signed off on with the EU , Putins instruction came down ... Nyet. That caused 95 days of increasingly violent disturbances in Kviv, in which about 200 plus people were killed by the Riot police ... Using the term riot police is a misnomer, they included irregular forces released from prison for violence and given batons.
Anyway by then the Russian leaning President scarpered to Moscow in a midnight flit. New elections were held and a new government elected and a new President.
The new Government was niave but was popular , and there was euphoria ,and signed off on the EU deal, which allowed Ukraine to have limited access to the West. This is the formative period in Ukrainian self reliance.
Moscow was not best pleased , especially because Crimea was a favoured holiday spot and retirement location for the elite and of course the home of their Mediterranean Fleet. So they organised a coup. They inflitrated thousands of little green men,and suddenly declared UDI and joining up with Russia. It was fait accompli before the Ukrainians even realised. Since Crimea was very Russian centric anyway, the referendum passed .
This was not enough for Putin so he attempted the same game in two other border regions ... The Donbass. However the Ukrainians were wiser to to ploy now. And resisted. But Donbass is easier to supply from Russia and the Ukrainian army was pathetically weak, .. but none the less they basically held the line. Putins idea was as Flecc has identified to make a land corridor from Russia to Crimea and Mariupol was in the way. Very strong resistance by a volunteer militia in that city broke the Russian advance, and they withdrew. This is the origin of calling Ukrainians Nazis .
An uneasy ceasefire Sporadic violence has continued for the 8 years since.
Meanwhile Ukraine didn't waste the time and solicited Western Support and training and increased their westernisation. Note it was what the Ukrainians wanted ... The rest is current news . Putin's levelling of Mariupol is sheer revenge and grudge.