Brexit, for once some facts.

[Woosh]

I entered this subject in this thread for one purpose only, to protest that the possibly impending war at that time was entirely unnecessary and could easily have been avoided in the ways I described

it could not have been avoided. I agree with you on most points, especially the futility of wars.
However, Putin came to Ukraine and lit the fire and he won't stop.
Nobody knows how to stop the war, even Lavrov does not seem to know what Russian policy is.
He kept repeating the same message more than two weeks after the war started.

 

[GLJoe]

flecc has the advantage of a real and personal experience of world war 2
...
Still, we tend to split hair on this thread, the differences between us aren't as big as the conversation goes...

I think you and I must be reading different threads!

 

[jonathan.agnew]

I think you and I must be reading different threads!

Speaking of which, china is beginning to send humanitarian aid to ukraine (to chernivtsi - see bbc)

 

[oyster]

A regular occurrence, they wait until 81 working machines have been installed before acting!

Why not act the first time they find such things are being installed?

Looks very much like a reaction to the Ukraine war - even if it was already on the cards.

All UK crypto-currency cash machines (ATMs) are operating illegally and must be shut down, the Financial Conduct Authority has announced.
Crypto-ATMs look like regular cash machines and let people buy crypto-currency, such as Bitcoin, using their bank cards.
But no company offering crypto-currency services in the UK has a licence to operate a crypto-ATM.
The FCA said all such machines must be shut down or it will take action.

Bitcoin cash machines ordered to shut down in UK

The Financial Conduct Authority warns that all crypto-ATMs in the UK are operating illegally.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[oldgroaner]

Not only is Russia's army (And generals) somewhat inept, but their Cyber security seems lacking too
"Anonymous announces that it has successfully hacked and taken down the website of Russia’s Space Agency in order to punish Putin for his illegal invasion of Ukraine. "

 

[oyster]

Not only is Russia's army (And generals) somewhat inept, but their Cyber security seems lacking too
"Anonymous announces that it has successfully hacked and taken down the website of Russia’s Space Agency in order to punish Putin for his illegal invasion of Ukraine. "

Wait till we see what Russia can do to our computer systems!

(By "our", I do mean all those involved in criticizing and sanctioning Russia and/or supplying Ukraine. They might bypass the UK as insignificant.)

 

[flecc]

it could not have been avoided. I agree with you on most points, especially the futility of wars.
However, Putin came to Ukraine and lit the fire and he won't stop.
Nobody knows how to stop the war, even Lavrov does not seem to know what Russian policy is.
He kept repeating the same message more than two weeks after the war started.

As I posted I wasn't going to post again on this subject, but since you and Zlatan have posted ignoring the realities, I'll respond on it this last time.

As I've already described in detail, any chance of this war occurring could have been removed in 2014 by a sensible pragmatic response to the Russian move to acquire the Crimea. It was no use to Ukraine so that would have occasioned no material loss.

And this war could be stopped already as Georgia proves. The situation there was very similar to that of Ukraine. Firstly the wish of both to join the EU, secondly both had a pair of small districts predominantly Russian which Russian claimed.

Following one of the disputed districts fighting Georgia with Russian support from 1st August 2008 internally, on 8th August 2008 Russia launched a full scale assault on Georgia, creating huge infrastructure damage. Though with some initial fierce defensive action the Georgians largely retreated before it, leaving Russia a de facto winner within days. This enabled President Sarkozy of France to step in and negotiate a cease fire and that war ended on 12th August, a fraction of the length of the Ukraine war so far.

Since Russia had proved its point to Georgia by showing what happens when they get too friendly with the West, the Russians withdrew from Georgia with the last of their men leaving on 8th October. Just five days of war followed by a few weeks of reducing occupation.

Since then Georgia has lived a completely independent free country, still to this day insisting they want to join the EU.

And the whole of everything I've just elucidated with Putin in full control in Russia.

So my opposition in here is completely wrong on their following contentions:

That there could not be peace. Wrong.

That the present war could not be stopped. Wrong, it could have been stopped already.

That Putin and Lavrov cannot be negotiated with and cannot be reasonable. Wrong, they clearly can be when the circumstances are made right for them to do so by keeping face. The Georgian president sensibly did that, leaving Georgia free to fight another day. The chump in Ukraine did not, instead throwing petrol on the fire and continuing to do that, maximising the harm indefinitely and risking losing Ukraine totally into Russia

Even if Ukraine wins eventually after a long conflict, which is the better way to leave the country still free with minimal harm? Georgia's or Ukraine's?

If you can't see that it's Georgia's, there is something very wrong with your judgement.
.

 

[Zlatan]

As I posted I wasn't going to post again on this subject, but since you and Zlatan have posted ignoring the realities, I'll respond on it this last time.

As I've already described in detail, any chance of this war occurring could have been removed in 2014 by a sensible pragmatic response to the Russian move to acquire the Crimea. It was no use to Ukraine so that would have occasioned no material loss.

And this war could be stopped already as Georgia proves. The situation there was very similar to that of Ukraine. Firstly the wish of both to join the EU, secondly both had a pair of small districts predominantly Russian which Russian claimed.

Following one of the disputed districts fighting Georgia with Russian support from 1st August 2008 internally, on 8th August 2008 Russia launched a full scale assault on Georgia, creating huge infrastructure damage. Though with some initial fierce defensive action the Georgians largely retreated before it, leaving Russia a de facto winner within days. This enabled President Sarkozy of France to step in and negotiate a cease fire and that war ended on 12th August, a fraction of the length of the Ukraine war so far.

Since Russia had proved its point to Georgia by showing what happens when they get too friendly with the West, the Russians withdrew from Georgia by the 8th October with the last of their men leaving on 8th October. Just five days of war followed by a few weeks of occupation.

Since then Georgia has lived a completely independent free country, still to this day insisting they want to join the EU.

And the whole of everything I've just elucidated with Putin in full control in Russia.

So my opposition in here is completely wrong on their following contentions:

That there could not be peace. Wrong.

That the present war could not be stopped. Wrong, it could have been stopped already.

That Putin and Lavrov cannot be negotiated with and cannot be reasonable. Wrong, they clearly can be when the circumstances are made right for them to do so by keeping face. The Georgian president sensibly did that, leaving Georgia free to fight another day. The chump in Ukraine did not, instead throwing petrol on the fire and continuing to do that, maximising the harm indefinitely and risking losing Ukraine totally into Russia

Even if Ukraine wins eventually after a long conflict, which is the better way to leave the country still free with minimal harm? Georgia's or Ukraine's?

If you can't see that it's Georgia's, there is something very wrong with your judgement.
.

But that's neither yours or our decision flecc. Ukrainians have decided they don't want Russia taking any part of their country or dominating any of its citizens. It was a free independent country and is fighting to prolong that situation. People in Ukraine know much better than you or I as to what its like to live under Putin's regime. Seems many would rather die than do so, that in itself says something about Putin.. And the fact that 99% of refugees flee Ukraine to the west... And not to your admired Russia says something else.

 

[flecc]

But that's neither yours or our decision flecc. Ukrainians have decided they don't want Russia taking any part of their country or dominating any of its citizens. It was a free independent country and is fighting to prolong that situation. People in Ukraine know much better than you or I as to what its like to live under Putin's regime. Seems many would rather die than do so, that in itself says something about Putin.. And the fact that 99% of refugees flee Ukraine to the west... And not to your admired Russia says something else.

Can't you read?

Georgia is independent and free, not living under Putin, and Ukraine doesn't need to by the same token. It can be just as free and independent, without all the bloodshed. Georgia has shown how simple that is.
.

 

[Woosh]

Can't you read?

Georgia is independent and free, not living under Putin, and Ukraine doesn't need to by the same token. It can be just as free and independent, without all the bloodshed. Georgia has shown how simple that is.
.

Putin insisted that the Ukrainian army must surrender. That's quite a difference. It seems to me that Putin wanted a war.

 

[flecc]

Putin insisted that the Ukrainian army must surrender. That's quite a difference. It seems to me that Putin wanted a war.

Come now, Woosh you know better than this, of course Putin didn't want this violent war, he wanted the same easy collapse as in Georgia and should have enjoyed that for the ultimate good.

The start point of negotiation is that both sides demand everything.

Deadlock, so the weaker should then give a little to get movement.

The stronger shows interest, enabling the weaker to enlarge upon their offer and ask for a little give in return.

Thus it progresses to success, step by step. It worked for Sarkosy with Georgia because the Georgian president was a reasonable man. It couldn't work for Macron with Ukraine because the Ukrainian president is an unreasonably combative man incapable of diplomacy.

End point, Georgia is a free independent nation, Ukraine will possibly never be again. Or if free one day, only with immense loss of life and suffering which didn't need to happen.
.

 

[Zlatan]

Can't you read?

Georgia is independent and free, not living under Putin, and Ukraine doesn't need to by the same token. It can be just as free and independent, without all the bloodshed. Georgia has shown how simple that is.
.

Tell the Ukrainians Flecc not us. They made decision to fight Russians because they have infinitely more knowledge of Russia, Georgia an

Can't you read?

Georgia is independent and free, not living under Putin, and Ukraine doesn't need to by the same token. It can be just as free and independent, without all the bloodshed. Georgia has shown how simple that is.
.

No, it's you that can't.
The Ukrainians know their own situation and that of Georgia or Crimea infinetley better than you do. They know exactly what it's like to live under Putin, if not why aren't millions fleeing the bloodshed, to their cousins in Russia.
It's as if you sat in perfect comfort enjoying every freedom imaginable 3500 miles away from what's going on knows more what's going on than the Ukrainians themselves. (and its same with your opinion over Uyghurs in China)
I think you've lost the plot somewhat flecc.
But, I do sort of agree. It is high time for Ukraine to cut losses, move west and let Putin have east, before he destroys Kyiv.
But I, m not Zelenskyy or Klitchko or Ukrainian.

Occupied territories of Georgia - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

.

I should read this Flecc. Not quite as you describe. Probably because neither you or UN inspectors are allowed in occupied regions.
But no doubt it will be wrong.
If Russians say Georgians are free, well they are aren't they.
Like I said a while ago, we are better not posting on this subject, but you insisted.
You are seriously wrong on this one Flecc.

 

[jonathan.agnew]

Come now, Woosh you know better than this, of course Putin didn't want this violent war, he wanted the same easy collapse as in Georgia and should have enjoyed that for the ultimate good.

The start point of negotiation is that both sides demand everything.

Deadlock, so the weaker should then give a little to get movement.

The stronger shows interest, enabling the weaker to enlarge upon their offer and ask for a little give in return.

Thus it progresses to success, step by step. It worked for Sarkosy with Georgia because the Georgian president was a reasonable man. It couldn't work for Macron with Ukraine because the Ukrainian president is an unreasonably combative man incapable of diplomacy.

End point, Georgia is a free independent nation, Ukraine will possibly never be again. Or if free one day, only with immense loss of life and suffering which didn't need to happen.
.

And in this lovely pacifist spirit I think the police should equally stop prosecuting criminals. We should instead set up support groups for them so we can find out what they want, to give it to them. While we're on this, I've always fancied a leaf and, as a starting point of our negotiation, flecc, you can agree to give me yours (just leave it at an agreed place, unlocked, ready to drive away, I'll get back to you about returning it if I can be bothered..)

 

[Zlatan]

And in this lovely pacifist spirit I think the police should equally stop prosecuting criminals. We should instead set up support groups for them so we can find out what they want, to give it to them. While we're on this, I've always fancied a leaf and, as a starting point of our negotiation, flecc, you can agree to give me yours (just leave it at an agreed place, unlocked, ready to drive away, I'll get back to you about returning it if I can be bothered..)

Oh, and Flecc, I, d like a flat near London. Leave keys under mat and vacate. Don't worry about cup of tea but have some tea bags, milk and sugar in flat. Thanks old boy.

Putin has grossly overplayed his hand - but Nato could be making the same mistake

The one force that could unintentionally rescue Putin and his regime is Nato itself, writes Patrick Cockburn

inews.co.uk

Good points here. If Putin leaves, sanctions stop immediately.???

 

[flecc]

But, I do sort of agree. It is high time for Ukraine to cut losses, move west and let Putin have east, before he destroys Kyiv.
But I, m not Zelenskyy or Klitchko or Ukrainian.

What on earth is wrong with your understanding? Ukraine needn't have lost any land of value to them or have losses of life to be cut. Nor give up their eastern half. By reasonably conceding the tiny amount of Crimea and Donbass which are no use to them anyway, they could have this war already ended and be returning to free independence within weeks, with even the Donbass civil war ended too.

I'm not saying we are any of those people you mention above, I know it's their decision. I'm simply showing how they could have avoided all this.

It's an opinion, that's all.
.

 

[flecc]

Jonathan and Zlatan, your thinking really is warped. My home and my car are of course of huge value to me and my freedom.

The very small parts in their vast land that Ukraine needs to concede to remain free and independent they do not possess anyway, nor are they of any use to them. The largest part of that small amount, the Crimea, they've never occupied to any extent since as a desert its never been of use to them.

As I posted before, Ukraine's attitude on Crimea is "Dog in the manger". No use to them but trying to deny it to someone to whom it is useful, to Russia as the base of their southern fleet. Both countries are neighbours from hell.

I really am out now, since it's quite clear that I am arguing with the same sort of people as the Ukrainian President Zelenskyy, incapable of being reasonable or seeing reason, incapable of sensible judgement.
.

 

[jonathan.agnew]

Jonathan and Zlatan, your thinking really is warped. My home and my car are of course of huge value to me and my freedom.

The very small parts in their vast land that Ukraine needs to concede to remain free and independent they do not possess anyway, nor are they of any use to them. The largest part of that small amount, the Crimea, they've never occupied to any extent since as a desert its never been of use to them.

As I posted before, Ukraine's attitude on Crimea is "Dog in the manger". No use to them but trying to deny it to someone to whom it is useful, to Russia as the base of their southern fleet. Both countries are neighbours from hell.

I really am out now, since it's quite clear that I am arguing with the same sort of people as the Ukrainian President Zelenskyy, incapable of being reasonable or seeing reason, incapable of sensible judgement.
.

Well I'm happy to see that you've decided to negotiate. That is absolutely fine. I will only use your car when youre not using it. And lets face it, it's not as if you use it much, may as well let me have it and ask when you need it..

 

[oyster]

What on earth is wrong with your understanding? Ukraine needn't have lost any land of value to them or have losses of life to be cut. Nor give up their eastern half. By reasonably conceding the tiny amount of Crimea and Donbass which are no use to them anyway, they could have this war already ended and be returning to free independence within weeks, with even the Donbass civil war ended too.

I'm not saying we are any of those people you mention above, I know it's their decision. I'm simply showing how they could have avoided all this.

It's an opinion, that's all.
.

Would we cede the Isle of Man to the Irish? Or the Isle of Wight to the French?

 

[Zlatan]

Would we cede the Isle of Man to the Irish? Or the Isle of Wight to the French?

We won't even give Gibraltar back to Spanish. And rightly so.. Gibraltar is as British as Curry..

 

[wheeler]

Would we cede the Isle of Man to the Irish? Or the Isle of Wight to the French?

Well we didn't cede the Falklands to Argentina so I suspect the answer is no.