Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

Afraid not (though I can think of words for the kind of psychopath who oversaw the mass murder of civilians in the chechen war)

You really are warped. That Chechen war is militarily and politically spoken of as an earlier example of "shock and awe" tactics, with the horrific consequences that brings.

It was in response to shocking degrees of Islamic terrorism within Russia. Inexcusable, but the reason understandable.

Years later the USA launched an unbelievably savage "shock and awe" aerial bombing and cruise missile attack on Iraq, aimed entirely at cities like Baghdad full of civilians when it was known the National Guard of Iraq were outside the cities preparing for a US ground onslaught,

That was in response to nothing at all, based on two obvious lies. That Iraq committed 9/11 and that Iraq had WMDs. Inexcusable and in no possible way understandable.

We've heard bleats that Bush an Blair are war criminals who should be tried for that appalling crime, but no real effort to bring that about .

Fast forward to now and it's a different story for Putin's and Medvedev's equally reprehensible war crimes.

And all that without mentioning our bombing to total destruction German cities like Dresden which had no war production and which were full of women and children being indiscriminately killed.
.

 

[jonathan.agnew]

You really are warped. That Chechen war is militarily and politically spoken of as an earlier example of "shock and awe" tactics, with the horrific consequences that brings.

It was in response to shocking degrees of Islamic terrorism within Russia. Inexcusable, but the reason understandable.

Years later the USA launched an unbelievably savage "shock and awe" aerial bombing and cruise missile attack on Iraq, aimed entirely at cities like Baghdad full of civilians when it was known the National Guard of Iraq were outside the cities preparing for a US ground onslaught,

That was in response to nothing at all, based on two obvious lies. That Iraq committed 9/11 and that Iraq had WMDs. Inexcusable and in no possible way understandable.

We've heard bleats that Bush an Blair are war criminals who should be tried for that appalling crime, but no real effort to bring that about .

Fast forward to now and it's a different story for Putin's and Medvedev's equally reprehensible war crimes.

And all that without mentioning our bombing to total destruction German cities like Dresden which had no war production and which were full of women and children being indiscriminately killed.
.

You really are great at rationalising war crimes. And war criminals. Is it a hobby or something you do professionally? What else do you rationalise? Is it fun?

 

[flecc]

the idea that the CIA gave Russians their President is over the top.

The USA saw the chance to take advantage of the hard line communists reaction against Gorbachov and their CIA helped bring about the civilian uprising that led to Gorbachov going in favour of Yeltsin.

Since Yeltsin was entirely and solely responsible for Putin's fast track promotion to president as I've previously described, the line of US responsibility is established.

They make a habit of it.

In 1948 they brought about the overthrow of the democratic government of Iran to return the despotic Shah of Iran to power as dictator, all well documented and the BBC shamefully admitting their involvement.

Also in 1948 the illegal creation of Israel and all that has led to.

Iraq too was regime change, as was Afghanistan.

And in the early 2000s in their Euromaiden project they brought into life the Orange party in Ukraine, overthrowing the entirely democratic government there by a coup. That created the start of the Donbass civil war, leading all the way to the present conflict.

These all arise from the US obsession that they and they alone should run the world, when it is abundantly clear from the outcomes that they are incapable of doing that acceptably.

China of course is their next target.
.

 

[flecc]

You really are great at rationalising war crimes. And war criminals. Is it a hobby or something you do professionally? What else do you rationalise? Is it fun?

Explaining how things that trigger extreme emotions come about, calmly and rationally.

It is only in that way that we will ever understand enough to avoid repeating the experiences over and over again ad nauseum.

Professionally no. Aspects of entomology yes. Fun no, damned hard work, especially with those like yourself who distort my intent.
.

 

[jonathan.agnew]

Explaining how things that trigger extreme emotions come about, calmly and rationally.

It is only in that way that we will ever understand enough to avoid repeating the experiences over and over again ad nauseum.

Professionally no. Aspects of entomology yes. Fun no, damned hard work, especially with those like yourself who distort my intent.
.

Explaining extreme emotional states - aka mentalising. Beginning to understand each others subjective states as part of meaningful engagement. Those are not the same as finding plausible reasons for what happened in chechnya. That - justifying war crimes there - is rationalising (not mentalising). You have made the unfortunate mistake of blundering into something I do for a living

 

[flecc]

That - justifying war crimes there - is rationalising (not mentalising). You have made the unfortunate mistake of blundering into something I do for a living

Nothing in my post justifies war crimes in any way. Nor did i say I was explaining extreme emotional states, I couldn't because I don't understand those states so there was no mentalising. My explanations are of the circumstances that inspire those reactions and are an attempt prevent the circumstances. Rationalising.

It seems that what you do for a living may not be being done very well if you rely on such hair splitting in relation to what is a falsehood anyway.

It's important to start with facts as a basis for an accusation.
.

 

[jonathan.agnew]

Nothing in my post justifies war crimes in any way. Nor did i say I was explaining extreme emotional states, I couldn't because I don't understand those states so there was no mentalising. My explanations are of the circumstances that inspire those reactions and are an attempt prevent the circumstances. Rationalising.

It seems that what you do for a living may not be being done very well if you rely on such hair splitting in relation to what is a falsehood anyway.

It's important to start with facts as a basis for an accusation.
.

Now that's ironic. You wanting it to be about facts and accusations. On more than one level. You're the one making personal attacks, insulting me. I'm simply being socratic, questioning your confused use of concepts, and sometimes - to be frank - your dissimulation, disingenousness. Which you naturally don't like. The fact that you're as personally attacking as you are does make your attempts to rationalise what happen in chechnya, ukraine interesting.

 

[oyster]

Thankfully, a very different form of conflict:

Apple Clashes With UK Regulator in Fierce Response to Warning That Could Require It to 'Redesign the iPhone'
Friday March 11, 2022 9:04 am PST by Hartley Charlton
Apple has aggressively defended its ecosystem in a newly-published response to the UK's competition watchdog.

Apple Clashes With UK Regulator in Fierce Response to Warning That Could Require It to 'Redesign the iPhone'

Apple has aggressively defended its ecosystem in a newly-published response to the UK's competition watchdog. The UK's Competition and...

www.macrumors.com

Investigation into Apple AppStore

The CMA is investigating Apple’s conduct in relation to the distribution of apps on iOS and iPadOS devices in the UK, in particular, the terms and conditions governing app developers’ access to Apple’s App Store.

Investigation into Apple AppStore

The CMA investigated Apple’s conduct in relation to the distribution of apps on iOS and iPadOS devices in the UK, in particular, the terms and conditions governing app developers’ access to Apple’s App Store.

www.gov.uk

 

[oyster]

Some of the prelude to the current Ukraine war:

Trump thought US troops were in Ukraine in 2017, ex-ambassador says in book
Marie Yovanovitch, who was fired by Trump in 2019, reveals details of then president’s Oval Office meeting with Ukrainian counterpart

Trump thought US troops were in Ukraine in 2017, ex-ambassador says in book

Marie Yovanovitch, who was fired by Trump in 2019, reveals details of then president’s Oval Office meeting with Ukrainian counterpart

www.theguardian.com

(I don't blame you if you decide it is untrue after the first two words of the headline.)

 

[flecc]

questioning your confused use of concepts, and sometimes - to be frank - your dissimulation, disingenousness.

Your one sided interpretations, wrong as usual because they are so emotionally based. As we saw in your saying Russia was never communist, that descending into a silly rant about their leadership always being mafia. You miss the fact that as much as a half of the Russian population regret the passing of what they accepted as their communism. That is what matters, not whether it was communism or what you think it is. They liked it and want it back.

Until you learn to keep your cool your judgement will remain suspect at best.
.

 

[Woosh]

You miss the fact that as much as a half of the Russian population regret the passing of what they accepted as their communism.

that number may well have dwindled over the years, from 32% in 1996 to 11.8% in 2018.
My guess it's not just in Russia but all over the world.

Votes	%	Votes	%
Election	Candidate	First round	Second round	Result
1996	Gennady Zyuganov	24,211,686	32.03	30,102,288	40.31	Lost
2000	Gennady Zyuganov​	21,928,468	29.21		Lost
2004	Nikolay Kharitonov​	9,513,313	13.69		Lost
2008	Gennady Zyuganov	13,243,550	17.72		Lost
2012	Gennady Zyuganov​	12,318,353	17.18		Lost
2018	Pavel Grudinin​	8,659,206	11.77		Lost

 

[flecc]

that number may well have dwindled over the years, from 32% in 1996 to 11.8% in 2018.
My guess it's not just in Russia but all over the world.

Election	Candidate	First round	Second round	Result
Votes	%	Votes	%
1996	Gennady Zyuganov	24,211,686	32.03	30,102,288	40.31	Lost
2000	Gennady Zyuganov​	21,928,468	29.21		Lost
2004	Nikolay Kharitonov​	9,513,313	13.69		Lost
2008	Gennady Zyuganov	13,243,550	17.72		Lost
2012	Gennady Zyuganov​	12,318,353	17.18		Lost
2018	Pavel Grudinin​	8,659,206	11.77		Lost

True, especially in the rest of the world. But Putin still has huge support as you know, as much as anything because so many Russians believe he could bring back the old communist days.
.

 

[Zlatan]

True, especially in the rest of the world. But Putin still has huge support as you know, as much as anything because so many Russians believe he could bring back the old communist days.
.

No, because for the moment they believe his lies.. I wonder what they would think if they knew the denazification programme he has justified this on got 1.2 % of the vote in last Ukraine election. I wonder what they will think when they realize Russian forces are not liberating anyone, they are invading their cousins on behest of a regime wanting to go back to Tzar days.
We all know full well Putin is as far removed from communism as Johnson is, so how on earth can he return anyone to communism,even if they wanted that.
This whole episode is built on 2 things. An utter pack of lies mastered and maintained by Putin regime and fact they have Nuclear missiles,without which NATO would have decimated Putin's rabble by now.
Lunatic Putin has held the world to ransom on threats of Nuclear attacks demonstrating the megolamaniac he is.
Anyone not seeing this now is seriously out of touch and probably brainwashed by the very same mechanism used on Russian society.

 

[flecc]

I entered this subject in this thread for one purpose only, to protest that the possibly impending war at that time was entirely unnecessary and could easily have been avoided in the ways I described.

Since then I've been sidetracked into arguments on all sorts of related issues and for a while now have been trying to deal with opposing posts from three or more at a time, often on two or three different issues. Obviously that is very difficult to deal with and takes up a wholly disproportionate amount of my time, probably three times that of any one of yours.

So I'm leaving the subject by restating my original contention, now that you can all see what the actual war is costing the Ukrainians, the Russians and the rest of the world.

How any of you can still contend that a war between the West and Russia is inevitable or unavoidable to finally deal with the Putin and/or Russian issue I find unbelievable, given the even greater cost that would have and our knowledge of WW2 and its consequences.

Wars never solve problems, they only ever create new ones.
.

 

[Zlatan]

I entered this subject in this thread for one purpose only, to protest that the possibly impending war at that time was entirely unnecessary and could easily have been avoided in the ways I described.

Since then I've been sidetracked into arguments on all sorts of related issues and for a while now have been trying to deal with opposing posts from three or more at a time, often on two or three different issues. Obviously that is very difficult to deal with and takes up a wholly disproportionate amount of my time, probably three times that of any one of yours.

So I'm leaving the subject by restating my original contention, now that you can all see what the actual war is costing the Ukrainians, the Russians and the rest of the world.

How any of you can still contend that a war between the West and Russia is inevitable or unavoidable to finally deal with the Putin and/or Russian issue I find unbelievable, given the even greater cost that would have and our knowledge of WW2 and its consequences.

Wars never solve problems, they only ever create new ones.
.

Entirely avoidable... Agreed. If Putin is simply allowed to march into Ukraine unopposed. Then where?? And even if nowhere Ukrainians under a gangster regime with no self determination, no democracy and god knows what else.

 

[snafu]

Time to chill guys.... Turn it up....

I was introduced to this by Emerson Lake and Palmer but you just can't beat it played by an orchestra.

Yes I know Mussorgsky was Russian.

TTFN
John.

 

[oyster]

Time to chill guys.... Turn it up....

I was introduced to this by Emerson Lake and Palmer but you just can't beat it played by an orchestra.

Yes I know Mussorgsky was Russian.

TTFN
John.

And they did Nut Rocker (after B. Bumble and the Stingers )

Which was based on Tchaikovsky's work.

 

[oyster]

Time to chill guys.... Turn it up....

I was introduced to this by Emerson Lake and Palmer but you just can't beat it played by an orchestra.

Yes I know Mussorgsky was Russian.

TTFN
John.

I was being slow there - one of the parts of PAAE was
The Bogatyr Gates (In the Capital in Kiev)
Which ELP called The Great Gate of Kiev.

 

[snafu]

I was being slow there - one of the parts of PAAE was
The Bogatyr Gates (In the Capital in Kiev)
Which ELP called The Great Gate of Kiev.

Glad the penny dropped.

If you listen to the lyrics on the ELP version (No idea if they are original), they are quite relevant

TTFN
John.

 

[oyster]

Glad the penny dropped.

If you listen to the lyrics on the ELP version (No idea if they are original), they are quite relevant

TTFN
John.

The Great Gates of Kiev
-----------------------
Come forth, from love's fire
Born in life's fire
Born in life's fire
Come forth, from love's fire
In the burning, of our yearning
For life to be
And in pain there must be gain
New life!
Stirring in, salty streams
And dark hidden seams
Where the fossil sun gleams
They were, sent from the gates
Ride the tides of fate
Ride the tides of fate
They were, sent from the gates
In the burning all are yearning
For life to be
There's no end to my life
No beginning to my death
Death is life