Brexit, for once some facts.

[Woosh]

That would be good, but I fear it's day dreaming. Even some western assessments give Putin 65 to 70% support among the population and half the population regret the passing of communism. Statista

I've seen reports on Putin's support a few days ago. That was well before Russian people knew much about what's going on, before Putin imposed a 15 year jail threat on those who dare watch the BBC or CNN or some other non-Russian news and before images of Russian helicopters being shot down and trucks half buried in mud.
I reckon Russian opinion will change within the next 3 months after a few more millions Ukrainians become refugees.

 

[guerney]

Today, I ordered a new lot of flour for my baking purposes. Thankfully, price looks the same as last time I ordered. And availability is OK. I hope it remains so, but there are many "rumours" that prices will soon rise considerably and availability will plummet.

(I just got to my re-ordering point, not stock-piling any more than usual.)

Today, I saw my first 160.9 pence per litre forecourt (diesel - petrol three pence less).

Outrageous price gouging will commence shortly! I wanted to try your Shipton Mills but went with my tried and tested (25kg) Marriage's again - I'll bake bright orange bread using fresh pumpkin juice soon... I'm reducing it to freeze in ickle icicle bags

 

[oyster]

Putin threatens the West casually with nuclear war, especially with smaller yield weapons. We never did the same to him.
When the people of Russia see that their real security is under threat, I am pretty sure that a vast number of Russians can see the folly of Putin for what it really is.

One of the best things that could happen would be good, well-founded, relations between Russia and the rest of the world.

How do we get there from here?

 

[flecc]

I've seen reports on Putin's support a few days ago. That was well before Russian people knew much about what's going on, before Putin imposed a 15 year jail threat on those who dare watch the BBC or CNN or some other non-Russian news and before images of Russian helicopters being shot down and trucks half buried in mud.

This is where I think you misread what can happen.

These things strengthen the view of those opposed to Putin.

These things strengthen the view of those who support Putin, taking them as evidence he is right.

And since the start point is the great majority support Putin, the outcome is inevitable. He will still have majority support among the public.

Any danger he faces will be from the Duma eventually.
.

 

[guerney]

"Of course I do, I appear to be the only one in here who wanted to stop any chance of the war happening. Most of you seem determinedly wanting to risk WW3 and its potentially horrifying consequences"
.. Maybe the time to have stopped this was in 2014. The progression beyond that was Putins. I did think that both UK and USA were warmongering in the Christmas period ..and freely admit I was wrong Germany and Italy were strongly of the make up trade not war camp. It was only after Putin extended the "excerises" that I realised ut was going to happen, and I was certain then when the legal figleaf charade was enacted.
We cannot stop WW3 , but we can hasten And allowing British "volunteers" or indeed any NATO countries volunteers to fight gives Putin the causa belli..
We already had the horrific event of shelling on a nuclear power plant. Had that failed, ..say a shell into the cooling pond or the control room , the ability of Ukraine to produce grain for the next 30 years would be compromised.

Now he has a slow bomb, which could "Mysteriously" become an additional fast or dirty bomb to make various horrific calamities occur in Ukraine and beyond (depending on atmospheric conditions)

 

[guerney]

One of the best things that could happen would be good, well-founded, relations between Russia and the rest of the world.

How do we get there from here?

Force a stalemate for long enough for Putin to realise he needs to negotiate in good faith.

 

[oyster]

Force a stalemate for long enough for Putin to realise he needs to negotiate in good faith.

That is most assuredly a longer period of time than the rest of Putin's life - however long that might be.

 

[flecc]

One of the best things that could happen would be good, well-founded, relations between Russia and the rest of the world.

How do we get there from here?

It was so easily on the cards thirty years ago, until the USA thought it knew best. Even easy only a short while ago in 2014 as I've explained. Though from here incredibly difficult.

It's always possible though, but from this position only possible if the West makes the overtures with a more sensible attitude.

I can spell it out but fear I'll only be faced with the same silly bigotry and war mongering from those who refuse to understand, rather than can't understand. Put more bluntly, those who prefer killing to peace.
.

 

[guerney]

That is most assuredly a longer period of time than the rest of Putin's life - however long that might be.

(If he has it) Death by bowel cancer is usually very slow nowadays - lots of cutterage and chemo, and very often metastasising... we can hope for rapid and massively problematic metastasising... I wonder who he's chosen as his successor? Competitive even in death, psychos and sociopaths often select replacements less effective than they were, like Steve Jobs did.

 

[flecc]

I wonder who he's chosen as his successor?

His long time associate 56 year old Dmitry Medvedev is likely. They've swapped presidency and prime ministerial jobs previously and Putin has given Medvedev many of his appointments.
.

 

[Woosh]

These things strengthen the view of those who support Putin, taking them as evidence he is right.

how can anyone take the view that making 6 million people refugees is the right thing to do?

 

[Zlatan]

how can anyone take the view that making 6 million people refugees is the right thing to do?

And killing thousands upon thousands of Ukranian/ Russians not to mention destroying City after City, risking nuclear disasters, nuclear war and using nuclear deterents as nuclear threats.
Putin and his regime are worse than the Mafia. Signs have been there years, we now have definitive proof. Putin is no better than Hitler.
The other scary thing to consider is all Russians see Ukrainians as brothers, Putin in past has talked about both this and his like of city of Kyiv... If this is how he treats "brothers" I wonder how he'd treat us if given half a chance. His march into Ukraine was originally relatively restrained, imagine tools and techniques he'd deploy for Poland.

 

[flecc]

how can anyone take the view that making 6 million people refugees is the right thing to do?

I wasn't commentng on that, only on the war and it's internal effects in Russia. Will they even know about the impeding refugee crisis?

AFAIK its a million refugees at present not 6 million, and hopefully it won't reach anything like that number before the Ukrainians finally have the sense to surrender.

Don't try to foist the consequences of this war on me, I'm the only one here who has all along been advocating the avoidance of this war and how simple that was to achieve.

You lot are the ones who wanted this war, the consequences are yours to share.
.

 

[Zlatan]

I wasn't commentng on that, only on the war and it's internal effects in Russia. Will they even know about the impeding refugee crisis?

AFAIK its a million refugees at present not 6 million, and hopefully it won't reach anything like that number before the Ukrainians finally have the sense to surrender.

Don't try to foist the consequences of this war on me, I'm the only one here who has all along been advocating the avoidance of this war and how simple that was to achieve.

You lot are the ones who wanted this war, the consequences are yours to share.
.

That's a ridiculous thing to say. The only person wanting this war (military operation BTW) was Putin and a few of his friends.
Nobody in here has expressed slightest desire for this unnecessary war and its totally unacceptable for you to suggest such a thing. Actually its a disgraceful thing to suggest.
And you talk of surrender like it's some choice in a game of chess. Surrender will mean thousands of Ukrainians whisked off to uncertain futures, prosecution and denazification. The Ukrainians know better than any what its like to live under Russian rule. Its probably why they, d rather fight to death. This should just not be happening. Its insane.

 

[flecc]

The other scary thing to consider is all Russians see Ukrainians as brothers, Putin in past has talked about both this and his like of city of Kyiv... If this is how he treats "brothers" I wonder how he'd treat us if given half a chance. His march into Ukraine was originally relatively restrained, imagine tools and techniques he'd deploy for Poland.

Sheer fantasy.

Someone a few days ago says Putin wants to reinstate the USSR, immediately like sheep everyone is repeating this ridiculous myth and the politicians are using it as propaganda.

These same western politicians and so called experts have only just twigged that Russia is aiming to seal Ukraine off from the Black Sea, something I posted days ago was the aim. They don't seem to have a clue what is happening so are wildly guessing. Putin and Russia have absolutely no designs on present further expansion and will not under any circumstance attack any NATO country if NATO doesn't attack them first.

I've told you in the finest illustrated detail what Russia's aims are for this invasion and those only involve Ukraine, no other country. Now just watch it happen as I've said it will, assuming Putin succeeds.
.

 

[Zlatan]

And why Polly finds it amusing I have no idea.

 

[Zlatan]

Sheer fantasy.

Someone a few days ago says Putin wants to reinstate the USSR, immediately like sheep everyone is repeating this ridiculous myth and the politicians are using it as propaganda.

These same western politicians and so called experts have only just twigged that Russia is aiming to seal Ukraine off from the Black Sea, something I posted days ago was the aim. They don't seem to have a clue what is happening so are wildly guessing. Putin and Russia have absolutely no designs on present further expansion and will not under any circumstance attack any NATO country if NATO doesn't attack them first.

I've told you in the finest illustrated detail what Russia's aims are for this invasion and those only involve Ukraine, no other country. Now just watch it happen as I've said it will, assuming Putin succeeds.
.

Flecc, that is complete supposition on your part. And, even if it's the case Putin has not the slightest right to take Crimea in 2014 and now the parts of Ukraine he desires.
It's as though if he asks politely for the land he wants Ukraine should just say"oh ofcourse Mr Putin, exactly how much Ukraine do you want and where? "Barmy flecc.
I, d like UK to have Normandy, would be perfect for a holiday home. I, ll ask Boris to send some war ships and kick the French out.
I, ve said before Flecc, your justification for Putin is not at all. Just because he has nuclear missiles and a massive army doesn't mean he can resort to invading parts of certain countries in his desire for Empires. Its utterly ridiculous.
And actually he already rules a massive area anyway, and he already has borders onto NATO countries which have never been problematic.(Canada)

 

[flecc]

That's a ridiculous thing to say. The only person wanting this war (military operation BTW) was Putin and a few of his friends.
Nobody in here has expressed slightest desire for this unnecessary war and its totally unacceptable for you to suggest such a thing. Actually its a disgraceful thing to suggest.
And you talk of surrender like it's some choice in a game of chess. Surrender will mean thousands of Ukrainians whisked off to uncertain futures, prosecution and denazification. The Ukrainians know better than any what its like to live under Russian rule. Its probably why they, d rather fight to death. This should just not be happening. Its insane.

LIAR. Totally untrue. Post after post in here was saying no appeasement and that the Russians should strongly opposed and the Ukrainians supported with arms.

That wasn't for a bloody tea party was it?

The Ukrainian blood is only the hands of Putin, the Americans, the unnecessarily aggressive Ukrainians and those in the west who support such totally unnecessary war.

The Ukrainians know better than any what its like to live under Russian rule. Its probably why they, d rather fight to death.

Again untrue. The over 100 years before 2004 saw the Ukrainians enjoy an independent and privileged statehood as I've posted in great detail. It was after all Russian presidents who made them an independent country and long after gave them even greater powers beyond their own border. Poor things, what terrible suffering to made free and powerful.
.

 

[wheeler]

And why Polly finds it amusing I have no idea.

Polly would laugh at a cart rattling.

 

[Zlatan]

LIAR. Totally untrue. Post after post in here was saying no appeasement and that the Russians should strongly opposed and the Ukrainians supported with arms.

That wasn't for a bloody tea party was it?

The Ukrainian blood is only the hands of Putin, the Americans, the unnecessarily aggressive Ukrainians and those in the weat who support such totally unnecessary war.



Again untrue. The over 100 years before 2004 saw the Ukrainians enjoy an independent and privileged statehood as I've posted in great detail. It was after all Russian presidents who made the an independent country and long after gave them even greater powers beyond their own border. Poor things, what terrible suffering to made free and powerful.
.

Yes, you now use the word Independant. That answers your own ludicrous argument.
I, m not discussing it with you anymore Flecc. It's pointless. You are wrong.
But out of interest please explain what you mean by "an independent state"... Is that one where Russians can phone up and demand vast swathes of your territory.