Brexit, for once some facts.

oldgroaner

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There's plenty attacking Boris and Hancock or haven't you read papers last few weeks. Keep telling you but you don't want to listen.. Media has little affect nowadays, social media perhaps has power but traditional very little. Throughout pandemic most media have been against Govt and last couple of weeks more so than ever. And what happens? Boris goes up on polls.
Problem isn't media at all. That's just the excuse and reason for others to not try and change. Old hat now OG. Blame media, blame Tories for cheating blame anyone but don't look at yourselves.
Guardian' narrative of blaming others is typified today by this Guardian actually blaming electorate sums it up.
Its the Tories, Its Boris, Its Media, Its the electorate. Actually no. Its the alternative, woke, know it all condescending attitude as such as author of article in Guardian. Telling people they are wrong doesn't work OG. It only hardens their opinions and polarises results of polls and elections.
And until we all learn to stop blaming others and look at what is really going on and what people actually want we, ve got Tories.
Effectively you are simply confirming the average voter is not merely brainwashed from years of propaganda, but too stupid to realise that is the case.

And the Brainwashing was done by what?
The very media that now is losing control of the situation it created.
Your so called reasoning fails for the following reason
You can't educate conditioned and stupid people.
Or for that matter the ones who aren't but still vote for stupid politicians and policies, because they see no alternative, thus making themselves complicit in the debacle.
 

Jesus H Christ

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Effectively you are simply confirming the average voter is not merely brainwashed from years of propaganda, but too stupid to realise that is the case.

And the Brainwashing was done by what?
The very media that now is losing control of the situation it created.
Your so called reasoning fails for the following reason
You can't educate conditioned and stupid people.
Or for that matter the ones who aren't but still vote for stupid politicians and policies, because they see no alternative, thus making themselves complicit in the debacle.
Are you still here?
 
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Jesus H Christ

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I must admit to feeling a slight sense of relief when I saw that the gunman who popped that Black Lives Matter bird was a fellow bro. Can you imagine if it had been a honky?

Better ask Agnew what goin’ down in da hood.
 
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jonathan.agnew

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There's plenty attacking Boris and Hancock or haven't you read papers last few weeks. Keep telling you but you don't want to listen.. Media has little affect nowadays, social media perhaps has power but traditional very little. Throughout pandemic most media have been against Govt and last couple of weeks more so than ever. And what happens? Boris goes up on polls.
Problem isn't media at all. That's just the excuse and reason for others to not try and change. Old hat now OG. Blame media, blame Tories for cheating blame anyone but don't look at yourselves.
Guardian' narrative of blaming others is typified today by this Guardian actually blaming electorate sums it up.
Its the Tories, Its Boris, Its Media, Its the electorate. Actually no. Its the alternative, woke, know it all condescending attitude as such as author of article in Guardian. Telling people they are wrong doesn't work OG. It only hardens their opinions and polarises results of polls and elections.
And until we all learn to stop blaming others and look at what is really going on and what people actually want we, ve got Tories.
I realize this is a circular argument and we've been round this roundabout a number of times. But here goes. Think about the critical juncture that preceded political change in the past. Iraq, the 08 crisis, black Wednesday. It's the same this time. Were waiting for the denial to wear off. For the government to kill a few hunded thousand more through negligence. Clearly the average conservative voter need more than the usual amount of remedial teaching. But happily boris seem quite adept at serving it up.
 

Zlatan

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I realize this is a circular argument and we've been round this roundabout a number of times. But here goes. Think about the critical juncture that preceded political change in the past. Iraq, the 08 crisis, black Wednesday. It's the same this time. Were waiting for the denial to wear off. For the government to kill a few hunded thousand more through negligence. Clearly the average conservative voter need more than the usual amount of remedial teaching. But happily boris seem quite adept at serving it up.
That's almost a fair point but still hints at the same problem OG and much of left wing currently has...
What you are saying is, if you support Boris /Tories (or Brexit) you demonstrate a deficiency in some area, possibly misinformed, probably lacking understanding, certainly at will of a corrupt media and inhabit a lower moral ground... Whereas yourselves and Labour and or remainers are none of these. You assume a better understanding, less misled by media and generally an assumption of higher intellect. We see it all the time from left wing on here, the Guardian and unfortunately much of the influential people within current Labour.
Simple fact Danidl none of the above is true, we are all influenced to a similar extent by media and no one has a monopoly on better morals or a better idea of what we should be doing. But unfortunately this condescending attitude seen in our current left wing has driven millions away. This attitude of yours, OG's and Labour is exactly why red wall collapsed. Folk are sick of being told "electorate don't understand what they voted for" Sick of being told they don't hold the woke high moral ground demonstrated by so many Labour "leaders". So they think "feck you, I, ll show you" and vote accordingly. That gave us Brexit and its keeping your anti hero in power.
Like I explained to OG, even after 7 hours of Cummings revelations, page and page of anti Boris propoganda in media, after all the deaths, the PPE scandal and the puppet Hancock, Boris gained in opinion polls.
Agreed, it could be short lived, but how many more years are Labour and its devout supporters like you and OG going to wait. Next year, next election, next decade, next millennium.
The electorate do not need political education as Labour seem to think. They don't need more information or to ignore propoganda. Labour need to change to the electorate, and not the other way around. If they do not, we will have Tories indefinitely. Come on Jonathon how much worse could Tories perform? Objectively Tories should be at a record low. In power, dangerous revelations, inept ministers, wasted funds, hints of corruption, yet they ride a crest of wave. Now ask yourself why? Then read Guardian, OG's posts, your posts and think how people feel when told they don't understand.
It ain't rocket science Jonathon. It's simple human nature.
The less woke, the more none PC, the more deshevelled, the more confused messaging Boris gives... The more popular he will become. Its an anti vote. Against everything Labour are standing for today. Including Corbyn, Blair, Starmer, Unite, Mcdonnell, Abott and McCluskey.
The electorate understand perfectly what's going on.
 
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flecc

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the Guardian and unfortunately much of the influential people within current Labour.
Simple fact Danidl none of the above is true, we are all influenced to a similar extent by media and no one has a monopoly on better morals

It ain't rocket science Jonathon. It's simple human nature.
The less woke, the more none PC, the more deshevelled, the more confused messaging Boris gives... The more popular he will become.
:D :D :D
.
 

Danidl

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That's almost a fair point but still hints at the same problem OG and much of left wing currently has...
What you are saying is, if you support Boris /Tories (or Brexit) you demonstrate a deficiency in some area, possibly misinformed, probably lacking understanding, certainly at will of a corrupt media and inhabit a lower moral ground... Whereas yourselves and Labour and or remainers are none of these. You assume a better understanding, less misled by media and generally an assumption of higher intellect. We see it all the time from left wing on here, the Guardian and unfortunately much of the influential people within current Labour.
Simple fact Danidl none of the above is true, we are all influenced to a similar extent by media and no one has a monopoly on better morals or a better idea of what we should be doing. But unfortunately this condescending attitude seen in our current left wing has driven millions away. This attitude of yours, OG's and Labour is exactly why red wall collapsed. Folk are sick of being told "electorate don't understand what they voted for" Sick of being told they don't hold the woke high moral ground demonstrated by so many Labour "leaders". So they think "feck you, I, ll show you" and vote accordingly. That gave us Brexit and its keeping your anti hero in power.
Like I explained to OG, even after 7 hours of Cummings revelations, page and page of anti Boris propoganda in media, after all the deaths, the PPE scandal and the puppet Hancock, Boris gained in opinion polls.
Agreed, it could be short lived, but how many more years are Labour and its devout supporters like you and OG going to wait. Next year, next election, next decade, next millennium.
The electorate do not need political education as Labour seem to think. They don't need more information or to ignore propoganda. Labour need to change to the electorate, and not the other way around. If they do not, we will have Tories indefinitely. Come on Jonathon how much worse could Tories perform? Objectively Tories should be at a record low. In power, dangerous revelations, inept ministers, wasted funds, hints of corruption, yet they ride a crest of wave. Now ask yourself why? Then read Guardian, OG's posts, your posts and think how people feel when told they don't understand.
It ain't rocket science Jonathon. It's simple human nature.
The less woke, the more none PC, the more deshevelled, the more confused messaging Boris gives... The more popular he will become. Its an anti vote. Against everything Labour are standing for today. Including Corbyn, Blair, Starmer, Unite, Mcdonnell, Abott and McCluskey.
The electorate understand perfectly what's going on.
Thank you for including me in a debate in which I have consistently avoided. British internal party politics is an internal matter and has zero interest for me. If I am interested in buffoonery, I have plenty of more local targets.
 

Zlatan

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Thank you for including me in a debate in which I have consistently avoided. British internal party politics is an internal matter and has zero interest for me. If I am interested in buffoonery, I have plenty of more local targets.
My apologies Danidl. It was a genuine mistake. Wasn't intended. Had 4 hour heart op yesterday... Drugs..
Reply was obviously for Jonathon, you don't comment on such matters. I won't change it now, would spoil its effect.
 
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Danidl

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My apologies Danidl. It was a genuine mistake. Wasn't intended. Had 4 hour heart op yesterday... Drugs..
Reply was obviously for Jonathon, you don't comment on such matters. I won't change it now, would spoil its effect.
I hope the Op went well.. . Having a heart will be a genuine improvement. In my case sticking metal bits around the one I was born with has not done me harm.
 
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oldgroaner

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You assume a better understanding, less misled by media and generally an assumption of higher intellect. We see it all the time from left wing on here, the Guardian and unfortunately much of the influential people within current Labour.
Has it never occurred to you that we might actually be right?
No of course not, do carry on with the sermon, I love social fiction. :cool:
 

oldgroaner

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My apologies Danidl. It was a genuine mistake. Wasn't intended. Had 4 hour heart op yesterday... Drugs..
Reply was obviously for Jonathon, you don't comment on such matters. I won't change it now, would spoil its effect.
Don't stop there, the whole sermon was worse than usual, but glad the operation was a success!
 

oldgroaner

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Thought for the day.
"Conservative votes are now so efficiently boundaried that it takes just 38,000 to elect a Tory MP but 51,000 votes for every Labour MP and, because of our FPTP electoral system, it needs 336,000 to elect a Lib Dem and 866,000 to elect a Green MP... "
 
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Zlatan

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I hope the Op went well.. . Having a heart will be a genuine improvement. In my case sticking metal bits around the one I was born with has not done me harm.
Went great thanks. They found it.... Eventually. Got to have another in a few months... Op that is.. But all loads better than it was. NHS are incredible.
 

Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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Thought for the day.
"Conservative votes are now so efficiently boundaried that it takes just 38,000 to elect a Tory MP but 51,000 votes for every Labour MP and, because of our FPTP electoral system, it needs 336,000 to elect a Lib Dem and 866,000 to elect a Green MP... "
It is time for electoral reform. Agreed.. Something must change.
 
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Zlatan

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Don't stop there, the whole sermon was worse than usual, but glad the operation was a success!
Glad you took trouble to read it . We can but try.. Stony ground I, m afraid.
And thanks.
It always amazes anaesthetist how much it takes to get me asleep... Everytime... Assistant always says... "he, s not asleep yet"
"give him some more"...
Then I, m out for ages.???
 

Zlatan

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Has it never occurred to you that we might actually be right?
No of course not, do carry on with the sermon, I love social fiction. :cool:
Where did I say you were wrong? I didn't. The problem is the attitude.
Your comment of (and I quote) was
" you can't educate conditioned or stupid people"
That says it all.
People who disagree with you, Labour or whatever, are labelled as conditioned or stupid. The electorate are neither. The sooner such as you and Labour realise the fact... The better.
All those stupid, conditioned people will just vote for Boris, not for merit but to not vote for people seeing them as such.
You can't label people as stupid, conditioned, misled or needing political education without alienating them. It's obvious really OG.
Its actually the height of stupidity to think you can get people to agree with your line of thought, your policies or politics, get them to vote for you by calling them names or labelling them. It's exactly what labour are trying to do and you typify why it isn't working.
 

Jesus H Christ

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Thought for the day.
"Conservative votes are now so efficiently boundaried that it takes just 38,000 to elect a Tory MP but 51,000 votes for every Labour MP and, because of our FPTP electoral system, it needs 336,000 to elect a Lib Dem and 866,000 to elect a Green MP... "
Dis needs reprotin’ ta da Babylon mon. But they ain’t gonna do nuffin’ ‘less ya jive. No what am sayin’

(Sorry, I’ve just spent a few days in London and I seem to have picked up some of the quaint local dialect.)
 
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Jesus H Christ

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I’m sad to learn that the producer of Afterlife, a great Netflix comedy, has been sacked. An anonymous woman is claiming that he had his hands on her waps many many years ago.

How do you begin to defend yourself against that sort of accusation? He’s had the boot too. Nothing even investigated or proven.

it’s like Cambodia in the 1970s.
 

jonathan.agnew

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Dec 27, 2018
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The electorate understand perfectly what's going on.
[/QUOTE]
Glad the OP went well. Was even gladder you confused me with Danny (was preparing some Irish insults when some helpful local bastards outed me).
Reread your last line above (no, I mean really reread it). What does the average voter look like? I know a few: above sixty, well off, so not want to pay inheritance tax but want great social care; a local plumber who's on benefit, doing work on the side, not very well, charging outrageous, desperate to prevent immigration to stop competent workers coming in and blowing his cover.
I could go on - self serving, hypocritical, unenlightened would be euphemistic. And they've been fed unenlightened lies by politicians about having the good life and someone else paying Maggie's raid on the welfare states social housing, Gordon brown's on pension funds. They want Scandinavian levels of health and social care and education while paying American levels of tax. Of course Corbyn and Macdonalds manifesto of development and redistribution wouldn't wash. And boris's would. But reality has a way of exposing lies.
 

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