Will you never stop jumping to conclusions on the basis of personal bias?
Just where have I reffered favourably to Cummings?...............EVER?
Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
- Start date
Just where have I reffered favourably to Cummings?...............EVER?
The Prius against the petrol engine automatic transmission cars of 15 years ago is the comparison
. The only materials required for an electric motor is aluminium, steel and a ceramic bearing material.and an insulating varnish. Copper and Aluminium can be interchangeable. Rare earth elements for clever permanent magnets are a optional extra as magnetic fields can be formed by aluminium or copper field windings.. The only exotic materials required at present are in the battery.. cobalt , lithium or whatever new recipe is produced.
It really depends on how expensive a very high capacity , rapid charging battery becomes. I am not aware of the weight of a fuel cell, in comparison to the weight of an ICE and gearbox clutch assy. , But I do know they don't use exotic materials.
The advantages one gets from a hybrid is range and speed of refueling,with reduced emissions. The current advantage of an ICE is range, and the current advantage of BEV is zero emissions.
Again as in my long post above, different thinking is required.
The low cost true equivalents will be dearer, but given e-car reliability, more suitable for long life. So over that long life they are very much cheaper to run in fuel, servicing, spares etc, saving the capital cost difference. And for many years yet there will remain concessions like zero road tax, free charging and parking in many instances.
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Thats just a four wheeled moped, not a car. And they were £7k when launched !!
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But why are you comparing a Prius to 15 year old automatics?
You, ve said it yourself, they are winner in neither camp.
The Hybrid, for efficiency and saving environment, was always flawed.
Plug in Hybrid is slightly better in that whilst on charged battery its good, but still lugging an ICE /fuel etc around with it. No doubt sim hybrids are good on ICE but still lugging batteries etc around. It was a marketing ploy and not an engineers choice, it's a compromise and like many compromises suits nobody.
Simple question.
Have you got one?
Why not?
They are neither one thing or the other... Now develop a tiny ICE (petrol/diesel or lpg) and generating system capable of supplying 30kw with an all up weight of 15kg or so(including fuel/plumbing/cooling) and a chemical efficiency on par with our best power stations and no emissions and you, ve cracked it. That might compete with FCEV but we are a hundred years from those figures... So hybrids can not compete.
They are a ludicrous idea Danidl. It's no different to buying a BEV and sticking a generator in boot. That's all they are in principal. Solves nothing.
Infact, they are worse, at least with generator in boot I can take it out when I don't need it.
And don't think the Prius is efficient because it's a hybrid, it's efficient in spite of being a hybrid. Build a car with a CD ratio of 0 26 (about lowest possible for a road car) stand it on skinny efficient hard tyres, give it an efficient engine... And low and behold it is great on fuel. But put that in perspective. The Prius is ugly, heavy and not a great deal of room compared with a Jag XFdiesel, Merc E220D or BM 520d. It doesn't drive as nice as any of those 3,it handles horribly compared with them and only achieves similar mpg. It isn't as fast. According to real world MPG it averages 50.(Honest John)
I average 52mpg with the XF.
I wonder what the Prius could achieve if it ditched the battery, e motors etc... Probably 70mpg.
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I wouldn't have one Flecc. Only supplied picture as I believe its the cheapest currently available.?? The Hong Quang hasn't passed EU /UK testing??
Indeed, I abandoned the idea of one very quickly, even at £7k plus monthly battery rental charges.
I'm guessing the £12k includes a battery.
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The new PEUGEOT e-EXPERT Hydrogen includes a new mid-power plug-in hydrogen fuel cell electric system, specific to STELLANTIS. Based on the EMP2 (Efficient Modular Platform), the new PEUGEOT e-EXPERT Hydrogen is a fully electric vehicle, combining two on-board sources of electrical energy. The vehicle includes:
The new PEUGEOT e-EXPERT Hydrogen can fill up with hydrogen in 3 minutes for a range of more than 400 km in the WLTP homologation cycle (currently undergoing approval).
The different operating phases of the mid-power plug-in hydrogen fuel cell electric system are:
The high-voltage battery is guaranteed for 8 years or 160,000 km for at least 70% of its charge capacity.
The van features up to 6.1m³ load volume, up to 1100 kg payload, and up to 1000 kg towing capacity.
The new PEUGEOT e-EXPERT Hydrogen will first be offered to professional customers (direct sales), in France and Germany, from the end of 2021. It will be produced in France, in Valenciennes, and then transformed in the Stellantis competence center dedicated to hydrogen technology in Germany, in Rüsselsheim.
The compact van segment market represents more than 750,000 vehicles per year in Europe. The PEUGEOT Expert has increased its market share every year since its launch in 2016.
- A hydrogen fuel cell, located in the engine compartment at the front of the vehicle, which supplies electricity to the electric engine by recombining the hydrogen contained in the tank with oxygen from the air. It emits only water vapor through the exhaust pipe.
- A permanent magnet electric motor with a maximum power of 100 KW, delivering 260 N·m of maximum torque. Located on the front axle, this electric drive train is similar to that of the PEUGEOT e-EXPERT (battery-electric model), which stands out in particular with a gearbox adapted to the loading constraints inherent to the use of commercial vehicles.
- A high-voltage lithium-ion battery, located under the cab seats, with a capacity of 10.5 kWh and a power of 90 kW.
- A three-phase on-board charger of 11 kW, located in the engine compartment.
- A tank system consisting of 3 hydrogen storage tanks located under the floor, with a total capacity of 4.4 kg at a pressure of 700 bar.
The new PEUGEOT e-EXPERT Hydrogen can fill up with hydrogen in 3 minutes for a range of more than 400 km in the WLTP homologation cycle (currently undergoing approval).
The different operating phases of the mid-power plug-in hydrogen fuel cell electric system are:
- At start-up and at low speed, the high-voltage battery alone provides the electric engine with the power it needs for traction.
- At steady speed the fuel cell supplies the energy directly to the electric motor.
- During acceleration, overtaking or hill climbing the fuel cell and the high-voltage battery are combined to supply energy to the motor.
- During braking and deceleration, the electric motor recharges the high-voltage battery.
- Eco (60 kW, 190 N·m): for better range
- Normal (80 kW, 210 N·m): optimal for everyday use
- Power (N·m) to optimize performance when carrying heavy loads.
- Moderate, for a similar feeling to a combustion engine vehicle
- Increased (accessible via the "B" push button for “Brake” located on the gearbox control), for enhanced deceleration when the accelerator pedal is released
The high-voltage battery is guaranteed for 8 years or 160,000 km for at least 70% of its charge capacity.
The van features up to 6.1m³ load volume, up to 1100 kg payload, and up to 1000 kg towing capacity.
The new PEUGEOT e-EXPERT Hydrogen will first be offered to professional customers (direct sales), in France and Germany, from the end of 2021. It will be produced in France, in Valenciennes, and then transformed in the Stellantis competence center dedicated to hydrogen technology in Germany, in Rüsselsheim.
The compact van segment market represents more than 750,000 vehicles per year in Europe. The PEUGEOT Expert has increased its market share every year since its launch in 2016.
Mutually exclusive. Would any truly wise person choose to be an MP let alone PM these days.
I am comparing the 15 year old Prius technology with the 15 year old Automatics it was in competition with. Can you not keep a train of thought for longer than a post?.
And no. I currently drive a 10 year old Peugeot 3008 Diesel , bought from new , which is actually ideal for my needs. It has the range I need to travel the length of Ireland and then the width of Brittany, It has a suitable height so I don't have to stoop down, and I can sit on the boot lid and drink my coffee ,while in the open air and protected from the rain. Previously my Audi A6 required me to hunch down getting in. At this stage, I don't see myself getting a replacement unless something very untoward happens, as I have replaced all injectors. And my mileage at about 15K Kms p A.
However when ,if we do replace, I would be interested in a BEV, home charging no problem, but the range to Brittany might be problematic still. And the power supply in my French place would not support home charging ... Mind you the local library , a Km away has a charging point The majority of our domestic driving could be done with any BEV.
The Prius is was a intermediate step. Battery technology was ill developed, but it could still outperform its immediate competitors AT THT TIME.
Now fuel cell technology is where the batteries were a decade ago, and the cost of hydrogen is dropping ..by 60% over the last decade, and likely another 60% over the next. The big boys like Bosch are doing the fuel cell stacks and they are increasing volumes , so don't assume they wouldn't figure.
Does seem FCEV is future. I was shocked how small they can be made, their heat handling capability has improved and they are using less precious metals than previously. Cost of Hydrogen is prohibitive at moment but that will come down. And no doubt as more are made unit price will drop.The new PEUGEOT e-EXPERT Hydrogen includes a new mid-power plug-in hydrogen fuel cell electric system, specific to STELLANTIS. Based on the EMP2 (Efficient Modular Platform), the new PEUGEOT e-EXPERT Hydrogen is a fully electric vehicle, combining two on-board sources of electrical energy. The vehicle includes:
- A hydrogen fuel cell, located in the engine compartment at the front of the vehicle, which supplies electricity to the electric engine by recombining the hydrogen contained in the tank with oxygen from the air. It emits only water vapor through the exhaust pipe.
- A permanent magnet electric motor with a maximum power of 100 KW, delivering 260 N·m of maximum torque. Located on the front axle, this electric drive train is similar to that of the PEUGEOT e-EXPERT (battery-electric model), which stands out in particular with a gearbox adapted to the loading constraints inherent to the use of commercial vehicles.
- A high-voltage lithium-ion battery, located under the cab seats, with a capacity of 10.5 kWh and a power of 90 kW.
- A three-phase on-board charger of 11 kW, located in the engine compartment.
- A tank system consisting of 3 hydrogen storage tanks located under the floor, with a total capacity of 4.4 kg at a pressure of 700 bar.
The new PEUGEOT e-EXPERT Hydrogen can fill up with hydrogen in 3 minutes for a range of more than 400 km in the WLTP homologation cycle (currently undergoing approval).
The different operating phases of the mid-power plug-in hydrogen fuel cell electric system are:
The new PEUGEOT e-Expert Hydrogen offers 3 driving modes from the mode selector:
- At start-up and at low speed, the high-voltage battery alone provides the electric engine with the power it needs for traction.
- At steady speed the fuel cell supplies the energy directly to the electric motor.
- During acceleration, overtaking or hill climbing the fuel cell and the high-voltage battery are combined to supply energy to the motor.
- During braking and deceleration, the electric motor recharges the high-voltage battery.
Two braking modes are available, with suitable battery regeneration:
- Eco (60 kW, 190 N·m): for better range
- Normal (80 kW, 210 N·m): optimal for everyday use
- Power (N·m) to optimize performance when carrying heavy loads.
- Moderate, for a similar feeling to a combustion engine vehicle
- Increased (accessible via the "B" push button for “Brake” located on the gearbox control), for enhanced deceleration when the accelerator pedal is released
It does seem FCEV is the future. They have got size of fuel cell much smaller, their heat handling much improved
The high-voltage battery is guaranteed for 8 years or 160,000 km for at least 70% of its charge capacity.
The van features up to 6.1m³ load volume, up to 1100 kg payload, and up to 1000 kg towing capacity.
The new PEUGEOT e-EXPERT Hydrogen will first be offered to professional customers (direct sales), in France and Germany, from the end of 2021. It will be produced in France, in Valenciennes, and then transformed in the Stellantis competence center dedicated to hydrogen technology in Germany, in Rüsselsheim.
The compact van segment market represents more than 750,000 vehicles per year in Europe. The PEUGEOT Expert has increased its market share every year since its launch in 2016.
It was a market test. Even in 2000 many cars were way more efficient, as I explained earlier the cars success had little to do with efficiency of drive train and all to do with efficiency of its shape. Prius owners were conned. Much cheaper, more fuel efficient cars were available then. (A humble Focus diesel was equally as economical, better drive, faster and as spacious)
It wasnt nicknamed Toyota Pius for nothing. But you didn't own one so WTF???
The Prius was catering to people thinking they were saving planet but actually were not at all. Including its entire production, resource usage, actually quite average economy, it was equally damaging as the car you drove.
Hey!!. That is called moving the goalposts. A Fuel cell system feeding a battery and a motor from a source of fuel, is exactly as much a hybrid as a ICE , driving a generator feeding battery and motor, from a source of fuel ....and that is where I made my initial posting.
If you read back, I was not carrying a flag for the Prius, what I did say was even with the extra baggage it was carrying, the electric motor bit brought the efficiency comparable with other cars of its vintage. I always thought that combining both motors via a gearbox ... electric and ICE was a kludge.
I don't doubt that. However in my case, I have already absorbed the capital cost of my Diesel, It has a very low resale value, and putting a towhitch on a new car would absorb a lot of thst. , there is no major advantage in road tax ... And we don't do congestion charges or free parking. Motor insurance if anything would be higher on a new car. And from the planets viewpoint, the carbon footprint on manufacturing has already been spent, and the only costs now are the ongoing fuel overhead and increased maintenance.
But the emotor did not contribute to car's efficiency. Imagine that same care, with same engine, with what was a fantastic CD ratio for its day,(twenty years later 0.26 is still a very low figure) specially developed low rolling resistance tyres and you, d have a car capable of averaging 60 mpg... Not the 50 it could do. And it could have been cheaper with much less copper and lithium used.
As I keep telling you, for the environment and out right efficiency the hybrid (2 modes of driving wheels) is seriously flawed.
If you want to build a fast car that continually alters its speed. (an F1 is either acceleratung or braking all the time. If its not its losing) then hybrid can be beneficial. Ie) utilise both to accelerate, utilise one to recoup energy when braking.
But most road cars to be efficient they must be efficient steady state. Hybrid is not. One motive power is simply carrying weight of the other. Its self defeating. You throw away the very benefits you aim to gain. Which is exactly what Prius did.
Had that car been marketed as super efficient, with just the ICE, with that CD, those skinny tyres etc it would have been much more efficient. The emotor /battery are just superfluous weight most the cars life.. If they aren't then the ICE is.
Very true, there's no way any new car is justified if the existing one still does the job well. Only when replacement is due can it make sense. And on consumption grounds towing is out for e-cars, unless wastefully designed to a greater but unknown weight specification or a gearbox is added. I won't be surprised if e-cars spell the end for caravans, not before time in my view for one of the silliest of all mankind's inventions.
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Having to plug in daily to top up the battery, as well as having to fill with hydrogen is offputting to say the least. A bit like the plug in ICE hybrid's inconvenience.The new PEUGEOT e-EXPERT Hydrogen includes a new mid-power plug-in hydrogen fuel cell electric system, specific to STELLANTIS. Based on the EMP2 (Efficient Modular Platform), the new PEUGEOT e-EXPERT Hydrogen is a fully electric vehicle, combining two on-board sources of electrical energy. The vehicle includes:
- A hydrogen fuel cell, located in the engine compartment at the front of the vehicle, which supplies electricity to the electric engine by recombining the hydrogen contained in the tank with oxygen from the air. It emits only water vapor through the exhaust pipe.
- A permanent magnet electric motor with a maximum power of 100 KW, delivering 260 N·m of maximum torque. Located on the front axle, this electric drive train is similar to that of the PEUGEOT e-EXPERT (battery-electric model), which stands out in particular with a gearbox adapted to the loading constraints inherent to the use of commercial vehicles.
- A high-voltage lithium-ion battery, located under the cab seats, with a capacity of 10.5 kWh and a power of 90 kW.
- A three-phase on-board charger of 11 kW, located in the engine compartment.
- A tank system consisting of 3 hydrogen storage tanks located under the floor, with a total capacity of 4.4 kg at a pressure of 700 bar.
The new PEUGEOT e-EXPERT Hydrogen can fill up with hydrogen in 3 minutes for a range of more than 400 km in the WLTP homologation cycle (currently undergoing approval).
The different operating phases of the mid-power plug-in hydrogen fuel cell electric system are:
The new PEUGEOT e-Expert Hydrogen offers 3 driving modes from the mode selector:
- At start-up and at low speed, the high-voltage battery alone provides the electric engine with the power it needs for traction.
- At steady speed the fuel cell supplies the energy directly to the electric motor.
- During acceleration, overtaking or hill climbing the fuel cell and the high-voltage battery are combined to supply energy to the motor.
- During braking and deceleration, the electric motor recharges the high-voltage battery.
Two braking modes are available, with suitable battery regeneration:
- Eco (60 kW, 190 N·m): for better range
- Normal (80 kW, 210 N·m): optimal for everyday use
- Power (N·m) to optimize performance when carrying heavy loads.
- Moderate, for a similar feeling to a combustion engine vehicle
- Increased (accessible via the "B" push button for “Brake” located on the gearbox control), for enhanced deceleration when the accelerator pedal is released
The high-voltage battery is guaranteed for 8 years or 160,000 km for at least 70% of its charge capacity.
The van features up to 6.1m³ load volume, up to 1100 kg payload, and up to 1000 kg towing capacity.
The new PEUGEOT e-EXPERT Hydrogen will first be offered to professional customers (direct sales), in France and Germany, from the end of 2021. It will be produced in France, in Valenciennes, and then transformed in the Stellantis competence center dedicated to hydrogen technology in Germany, in Rüsselsheim.
The compact van segment market represents more than 750,000 vehicles per year in Europe. The PEUGEOT Expert has increased its market share every year since its launch in 2016.
Hydrogen is still a far more expensive fuel than mains electricity and likely to remain so for a very long time.
Very few vans need the long range.
Current hydrogen is often "grey", produced from fossil fuels so not fitting with our needs.
This layout is only suitable for vans due to their height, it won't work for cars which in e-form are already embarrassed by the height of the underfloor battery. An underseat battery in addition to the underfloor tanks is out of the question for that reason. Taking away the car boot for the high voltage battery is unacceptable for both the obvious marketing reason and on safety grounds.
I see this van as a niche product for the limited long range van market, only in the limited circumstances where hydrogen on tap will be readily available. That said, Renault has long been the French market leader in vans and I see their e-tech plug-in hybrid vans not losing out to this until their sale is banned. That's in 2040, a whole life or two of a hard working van!
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