Brexit, for once some facts.

oldgroaner

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All rather subjective Danidl..
Throughout this entire episode there has been contradictory opinions and desires of way forward. People were not forced to attend Cheltenham, they went there knowing full well we were at start of an epidemic, business leaders were saying one thing, some MPs another. Examine the response of many on first advice from Government. I, m not social distancing, I, ll still be going to pub etc etc.
Today has been quite typical. Folk up in arms about Cummings and his outpourings then others moaning that some areas might not be leaving lockdown quick enough.
Yep, we all know now what we should or could have done... Son in law attended Cheltenham against my advice, do we really need Boris to pass a law for public to be sensible. He went, and like you is now blaming Boris for letting him.
Corbyn at that time was telling us all he wouldn't be changing his behaviour.
Its not just the government that needs investigating, it's stupid people aswell. From folk refusing to do anything different, refusing jab, sending kids to school after positive results, folk putting business before their own and families safety... Then blame somebody else...
And the worst thing of all that people do is vote for two utterly stupid things
  1. Brexit
  2. The Conservatives
 

oyster

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And the worst thing of all that people do is vote for two utterly stupid things
  1. Brexit
  2. The Conservatives
When it comes to stupid things to vote for, there's no shortage.

I had been going to mention a few parties from 2019 GE but there were too many to choose from! So how about:

Ann Widdecombe has failed to reach the semi-finals of BBC One's Strictly Come Dancing

Not quite enough votes but she got to something like tenth round.
 
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oyster

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Funny, isn't it, that last spring Cummings' Barnards Castle story was endorsed by Johnson himself - and implicitly supported by the whole tory party. (Some might well have not been happy, but once Johnson provided support, they had to either accept or overthrow Johnson. And we all know which they chose.)

Now they are coming out to get Cummings - and it is they who are really revising everything. They're saying they didn't believe then, they don't believe now. Most of us simply didn't believe at all - all the way through.

Barnard Castle eye test: Tory MPs’ jibes at Dominic Cummings
Many attack former aide’s ‘gossip’ and ‘revisionism’ following his seven-hour evidence session
 
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Zlatan

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Funny, isn't it, that last spring Cummings' Barnards Castle story was endorsed by Johnson himself - and implicitly supported by the whole tory party. (Some might well have not been happy, but once Johnson provided support, they had to either accept or overthrow Johnson. And we all know which they chose.)

Now they are coming out to get Cummings - and it is they who are really revising everything. They re saying they didn't believe then, they don't believe now. Most of us simply didn't believe at all - all the way through.

Barnard Castle eye test: Tory MPs’ jibes at Dominic Cummings
Many attack former aide’s ‘gossip’ and ‘revisionism’ following his seven-hour evidence session
The crazy thing about Cummings pointing out all these faults of Government, Hancock and Boris is that he, s simply raising issue of exactly what was his own roll in all of it, if it was so bad why wait till now, perhaps a year too late... On top of which he, s not only pointing out his own failings, those of all those he, s accused and those of entire opposition system. Can't remember Starmer actually not supporting any stance at time decision was made, Captain Hindsight generally waited a few weeks to see how things were going before he expressed his opinion.
I, m also beginning to think this criticism and examination of our Covid failings is getting rather insular and taking us away from the real issue. Three and a half thousand people have died today of Covid in India, just under 500 in USA and around 250 in Germany. Rather than playing blame game and looking to past we should be looking how we get out this mess, and help rest of world do same. On a world stage this Pandemic is not yet half run? But here we are with many demanding an enquiry???
 
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jonathan.agnew

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The crazy thing about Cummings pointing out all these faults of Government, Hancock and Boris is that he, s simply raising issue of exactly what was his own roll in all of it, if it was so bad why wait till now, perhaps a year too late... On top of which he, s not only pointing out his own failings, those of all those he, s accused and those of entire opposition system. Can't remember Starmer actually not supporting any stance at time decision was made, Captain Hindsight generally waited a few weeks to see how things were going before he expressed his opinion.
I think you're looking for fig leaves again. Although, they are all bad and self serving. This may be poor taste, but I was thinking Dom should take this matter to its logical conclusion by having a risque affair with a Frenchman of dubious character and being chased around London by paparazzi.
 
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Danidl

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The crazy thing about Cummings pointing out all these faults of Government, Hancock and Boris is that he, s simply raising issue of exactly what was his own roll in all of it, if it was so bad why wait till now, perhaps a year too late... On top of which he, s not only pointing out his own failings, those of all those he, s accused and those of entire opposition system. Can't remember Starmer actually not supporting any stance at time decision was made, Captain Hindsight generally waited a few weeks to see how things were going before he expressed his opinion.
I, m also beginning to think this criticism and examination of our Covid failings is getting rather insular and taking us away from the real issue. Three and a half thousand people have died today of Covid in India, just under 500 in USA and around 250 in Germany. Rather than playing blame game and looking to past we should be looking how we get out this mess, and help rest of world do same. On a world stage this Pandemic is not yet half run? But here we are with many demanding an enquiry???
As is my practice, I will not be commenting on individual British politicians, however I would strongly disagree that it is not time for a review of what the UK did wrong with CV19 in the March to October 2020 period. . You might be taking slight comfort that the current daily death toll in the UK is now small... But the overall in deaths per million of population, the UK was one of the worst in the world , and had none of the excuses that say Italy had. . That cries out for explanation.
Moreover it has a well developed health care system. There are categories of performance with 2000 deaths per million very high and 500deaths per million of population low. The UK at 1873, is in the high bracket. Moreover I have never trusted the UK statistical method, and I believe it systematically underestimated
. Germany, France, Italy etc are all following the same downward infection and death rates, but 3 weeks behind the UK.
 

oldgroaner

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The crazy thing about Cummings pointing out all these faults of Government, Hancock and Boris is that he, s simply raising issue of exactly what was his own roll in all of it, if it was so bad why wait till now, perhaps a year too late... On top of which he, s not only pointing out his own failings, those of all those he, s accused and those of entire opposition system. Can't remember Starmer actually not supporting any stance at time decision was made, Captain Hindsight generally waited a few weeks to see how things were going before he expressed his opinion.
I, m also beginning to think this criticism and examination of our Covid failings is getting rather insular and taking us away from the real issue. Three and a half thousand people have died today of Covid in India, just under 500 in USA and around 250 in Germany. Rather than playing blame game and looking to past we should be looking how we get out this mess, and help rest of world do same. On a world stage this Pandemic is not yet half run? But here we are with many demanding an enquiry???
With the hope of two things
  1. Preventing huge losses in the next wave
  2. being prepared for the next one
Being willing to ignore what has , and indeed is happening now is like
Forgetting you came to drain the swamp, and why you wanted to do it
while up to your balls in alligators
 
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Zlatan

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What all 3 of you are forgetting completely is that the real answers to how to cope with next pandemic, or even this one, should not come from politically motivated questions and certainly not from jealous personal ambition nastiness as demonstrated by Cummings.
Most questioning on here is not about what we do next, it's along same lines as Barnard Castle fool, motivated by hate of Boris or more generally hate of Tories.
If this witch inquisition works and Boris/Tories are ousted (which isn't going to happen any way) we will be none the wiser.
As a priority we should be looking behind the politics and asking the real questions and finding real answers to take us forward. At the moment it's like kids in a playground"you did this and you said that".
We don't seem capable of prioritising and homing in on real issues, they are all mixed up with old grievences about Boris, Tories and even Brexit.
Its actually quite pathetic and obviously politically led.
We should be looking for the answers to questions that prepare us for next time and not use this as an opportunity to attack individuals as scape goats.
For example
Why were Asian communities so badly affected?
Is far more important than "should Hancock have been sacked". (15 or 20 times?)
Would we really be better off if we sacked Hancock? A few might feel better and feel appreciative for their little victory but on scale of things would make no difference at all.
 
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oyster

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Hancock denied the claim and a No 10 spokesperson said on Thursday night : “The prime minister has full confidence in the health secretary and will continue working with him to protect public health and save lives.”

So if Hancock goes down, the splashback will not be pleasant for Johnson. And it sure looks like a lot of people have pulled their well-sharpened knives out and are preparing to dissect him.
 

Zlatan

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It's all political infighting tho, removed from Covid. Cummings and Hancock have previous. It won't affect a thing if either or both Hancock and Boris go... Well it could be worse. Gove or IDS.??? Gove as PM.. Brilliant. What a great improvement. Well done to all those shouting.
 

flecc

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Including hybrid?
Funny though I remember Euro 3 and 4 being in pipe line. Many thought their targets could not be met.. But they were, some by cheating, but not all.
Euro 7 probably won't happen for a while longer, by which time the e-car or plug-in hybrid only rule will be in force, And whether hybrid can be banned before 2035 depends on how production of pure e-cars goes.

We had similar nonsense with Euro 6, supposedly in force for all vehicles but not so in practice. For example all of the hybrid "Boris buses" for London didn't meet euro 6 despite the law saying they should have, though they've been converted since to comply.
.
 
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flecc

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Would we really be better off if we sacked Hancock? A few might feel better and feel appreciative for their little victory but on scale of things would make no difference at all.
It could have made a huge difference without the way he handled things. His bullying approach caused immense harm in the fight against Covid.

It got the public's back up, then multiplied that effect through provoking the police to inappropriate and even illegal excessive enforcement. The reaction of large numbers of the public was non-compliance with the rules out of resentment. It also helped to create the disbelievers who took the excessive enforcement to mean that Covid didn't exist and was a government scam intended to enforce greater control over the population. That in turn led to the refusal of vaccines (19% of over 50s, that's almost a fifth), greatly delaying getting the pandemic under control.

Hancock's culpability in all this is beyond question, aided by Boris Johnson's weakness in not having any real idea of how to handle Covid, making him incapable of restraining Hancock.

Without Hancock we'd have been left with the approach of the Medics and Boris Johnson, seeking and asking for the public's co-operation without that message being undermined daily by threats and ever increasing fines. The public would not have been so provoked into resentment, anger, disbelief, non-co-operation with the rules and vaccine refusal.

The overwhelming failure of Hancock and also Johnson was in not realising a freedom loving and fiercely defensive public like the British cannot be suddenly subjected to police state type control and laws without the huge and damaging reaction I've detailed above.
.
 
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oyster

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Including hybrid?
Funny though I remember Euro 3 and 4 being in pipe line. Many thought their targets could not be met.. But they were, some by cheating, but not all.
Of course including hybrid!

My ICE car can get as good or better mpg on the right sort of run as the hybrid I often drive.

The hybrid is far better for jumping into and pottering into town and back. Maybe five miles round trip. If I extend the trip a bit, like going to check the sea is still there, I have been able to get 80 mpg.

But drive to Cardiff along the motorway and the ICE beats it hollow. I can get over 60 mpg out of the ICE in good conditions at speed limit. At higher speeds, especially, the hybrid can drop below 50 mpg.
 
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Danidl

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What all 3 of you are forgetting completely is that the real answers to how to cope with next pandemic, or even this one, should not come from politically motivated questions and certainly not from jealous personal ambition nastiness as demonstrated by Cummings.
Most questioning on here is not about what we do next, it's along same lines as Barnard Castle fool, motivated by hate of Boris or more generally hate of Tories.
If this witch inquisition works and Boris/Tories are ousted (which isn't going to happen any way) we will be none the wiser.
As a priority we should be looking behind the politics and asking the real questions and finding real answers to take us forward. At the moment it's like kids in a playground"you did this and you said that".
We don't seem capable of prioritising and homing in on real issues, they are all mixed up with old grievences about Boris, Tories and even Brexit.
Its actually quite pathetic and obviously politically led.
We should be looking for the answers to questions that prepare us for next time and not use this as an opportunity to attack individuals as scape goats.
For example
Why were Asian communities so badly affected?
Is far more important than "should Hancock have been sacked". (15 or 20 times?)
Would we really be better off if we sacked Hancock? A few might feel better and feel appreciative for their little victory but on scale of things would make no difference at all.
That is as maybe. But holding politicians to account is always useful. If they realise that what they do might well be scrutised 9 months later, they might be more circumspect in their behaviour. Otherwise the tendency is to behave like a St Augustine .".with a God give me the gift of Chastity , but not just yet" .. with the time being 3 years later in never never land.
 
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Zlatan

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That is as maybe. But holding politicians to account is always useful. If they realise that what they do might well be scrutised 9 months later, they might be more circumspect in their behaviour. Otherwise the tendency is to behave like a St Augustine .".with a God give me the gift of Chastity , but not just yet" .. with the time being 3 years later in never never land.
Holding politicians to account is not what is happening. Hancock has been singled out because of his poor associations with Cummings. His mistakes (15 or 20?) are incidental. Pretty much same with Boris. Fall out is through a failed relationship and not objective assessments of situation.
Seems many are easily influenced by Cummings and headlines.
 

Zlatan

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Of course including hybrid!

My ICE car can get as good or better mpg on the right sort of run as the hybrid I often drive.

The hybrid is far better for jumping into and pottering into town and back. Maybe five miles round trip. If I extend the trip a bit, like going to check the sea is still there, I have been able to get 80 mpg.

But drive to Cardiff along the motorway and the ICE beats it hollow. I can get over 60 mpg out of the ICE in good conditions at speed limit. At higher speeds, especially, the hybrid can drop below 50 mpg.
Yep, it points out what many have been saying for months, the utter stupidity of hybrids. Making an ICE less efficient by dragging around electric motors/batteries or reducing efficiency of ecars by dragging around ICE was always a flawed idea, relying on marketing and misinformation to sell them.
An electric car with a generator in boot... You wouldn't think folk would buy them would you.
Or Porsche using idea to justify "green" 718s.. Ridiculous.
 
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