Brexit, for once some facts.

[Woosh]

The EU has lost time and perhaps more importantly, lost the confidence of its population in vaccination.

I repeat: The threat from the virus > The threat from the vaccine. Don’t lose sight of that.

if I tried to MAKE you change your mind on the EU, what would you say? So why do you think that Ursula von der Lyen should influence the choice of vaccine?
Her job is to arrange for approval and sourcing of covid vaccines, not to decide for the individuals which brand they should choose for themselves.
Some people prefer Pfizer. They pay for it so why should VDL interfere?
If AZ wants to sell more of their vaccine, they just have to fight for it like other producers.

 

[Danidl]

And the alternative is a real worry. Getting more 2nd jabs in arms but fewer people protected, so more people get ill and yet again combined with more chances for vaccine to mutate.
Its all a matter of negotiating the route with least risk, unfortunately there isn't one with no risk. How many times do we have to say just let JCVI/Mhra /Sage navigate what they see as best route. So far they have steered HMS vaccine faultlessly.
Again, it's as tho some on here think they know more and have better insight into it all than folk mentioned. How come Danidl, OG and Woosh aren't on JCVI or Sage.. Of course they aren't qualified,you,d never guess would you. OG is more convinced of his righteousness than Chris Witty is. Or thinks he is.
People on terraces always know better than manager who has spent his life studying football. Strange isn't it how all the real experts in life don't do the things they are best qualified to do. OG, Woosh and Danidl should be procuring vaccine, telling us our best strategy and which data to look at. I don't think so. Sorry lads, Chris Whitty, Patrick Valance, JVT and Stephen Powys for me.
OG, do you really believe you know more than Chris Witty?

..They don't if they continue in lockdown.

 

[Zlatan]

Z, that is a half truth. Had the UK an infinite supply of the vaccine, they would have been able to vaccinate everyone with the first dose within a week. Every Knight of Malta, Student Nurse, Paramedic, Vet, could have done it along with the standard NHS people.. ReMember on a certain day in 2016 the UK was able to get 38million people labelled, checked and processed over a 14 hour period. The decision to do the half way jab was to maximize the scarcer resource.. the vaccine. Ultimately , they all will need the second jab, ..and maybe even a third jab if the effects of the first have worn off.

Yes but delaying second jab does not reduce demands on vaccine, it merely gets more single jabs in arms faster. The total amount needed is identical. And of course supply is finite, they have looked at amounts, looked at likely rate of vaccination and come to conclusion extended delay is best compromise to get as many protected as fast as possible.
Why do you think you know more than Chris Witty etc. Do you think he hasn't got the brains to ask same questions as you, well sorry to tell you but whatever thought process us lot are going through they went through months ago.
Nobody on here is remotely qualified to question Chris Witty, PV, JVY and JCVI's strategy. They know way more than us, have spent their entire lives in related disciplines and are privvy to data analysis way before us.
Its so pretentious of you Danidl, to somehow think you know better. You do not.

 

[Zlatan]

..They don't if they continue in lockdown.

We aren't though are we. Lockdown is naturally breaking down already. The anti lockdown feeling is growing and folk are easing off as we speak. Besides, we must at some time come out of lockdown. We simply can't stay in it indefinitely. And many can't. Daughter is, and has been for last year, still pulling folk out of smashed cars or burning buildings.
The virus must be confronted and as fast as possible. Dillying about simply gives it more time to propogate and likely mutate. Your argument re higher chance of mutation with longer delay also applies to us taking our time. We don't have time to spare.
We are in midst of a storm and many countries are fannying about painting boat with anti foul with Macron telling us life jackets sink, sails are holed and generally panicking. Just get on with it.

 

[flecc]

And the alternative is a real worry. Getting more 2nd jabs in arms but fewer people protected, so more people get ill and yet again combined with more chances for vaccine to mutate.

Not true. The greatest risk of causing mutations is applying partial doses of vaccines and allowing them to stay partial for extended periods. The longer the period, the more opportunity the virus has to evolve a mutant.

Those who haven't had any partial dose of the vaccine cannot produce a variant without catching the virus first. The risk of the minority who do catch it producing a variant is far less than that with a partially vaccinated person since the vaccine gives the virus a head start.

The situation with antibiotics is somewhat similar, not completing a course and killing off the infection allows the bacteria to evolve into a resistant strain. It's how we created the so called superbugs like MRSA which have killed large numbers.

None of this requires one to have specialised medical knowledge, it's long been common knowledge among educated and intelligent people
.

 

[flecc]

Nice political solution in Scotland.

First they find Alex Salmond not guilty.

Now they find Nicola Sturgeon not guilty.

So they've made the problem go away as non-existant.
.

 

[Zlatan]

Potential for EU-UK vaccine collaboration despite AstraZeneca row

Analysis: joint investment in scaling up production could be on cards if differences can be resolved

www.theguardian.com

Better news, let's hope it comes to fruition.
Interestingly the factory producing vaccine for AZ in Netherlands has not yet got EMA approval???

 

[Danidl]

We aren't though are we. Lockdown is naturally breaking down already. The anti lockdown feeling is growing and folk are easing off as we speak. Besides, we must at some time come out of lockdown. We simply can't stay in it indefinitely. And many can't. Daughter is, and has been for last year, still pulling folk out of smashed cars or burning buildings.

As have my two kids.. One in the heart of crisis control with the police and the other at the cutting edge of the virus lab. But that point is that the Bristol Riots and the Woman protest etc are actually being fuelled by the illusion of invincibility.
The failure of Lockdown is a failure of responsibility by the Government,and the confused messaging.
I have a forboding that the UK, and to an extent ourselves, is going to fashion defeat from the jaws of victory. .. We had won last July, with only a small amount of mopping up to do, but blew it. We had it on the run in November, and then spectacularly blew it with the nonsense of Saving Christmas ..Our estimate is that Saving Christmas cost 1000 lives. Much worse in the UK. Even today the infection rates and death rates in the UK are pro rata the same as ours .. and we have not had the vaccines for as long.

 

[Zlatan]

Not true. The greatest risk of causing mutations is applying partial doses of vaccines and allowing them to stay partial for extended periods. The longer the period, the more opportunity the virus has to evolve a mutant.

Those who haven't had any partial dose of the vaccine cannot produce a variant without catching the virus first. The risk of the minority who do catch it producing a variant is far less than that with a partially vaccinated person since the vaccine gives the virus a head start.

The situation with antibiotics is somewhat similar, not completing a course and killing off the infection allows the bacteria to evolve into a resistant strain. It's how we created the so called superbugs like MRSA which have killed large numbers.

None of this requires one to have specialised medical knowledge, it's long been common knowledge among educated and intelligent people
.

Have a word with Chris Witty,seems you know more than he does. Give him a ring flecc. He obviously doesn't know all you mention. Unbelievable.

 

[Woosh]

Interestingly the factory producing vaccine for AZ in Netherlands has not yet got EMA approval???

the approval process includes the production facilities.
The factory is part of that.

 

[Zlatan]

As have my two kids.. One in the heart of crisis control with the police and the other at the cutting edge of the virus lab. But that point is that the Bristol Riots and the Woman protest etc are actually being fuelled by the illusion of invincibility.
The failure of Lockdown is a failure of responsibility by the Government,and the confused messaging.
I have a forboding that the UK, and to an extent ourselves, is going to fashion defeat from the jaws of victory. .. We had won last July, with only a small amount of mopping up to do, but blew it. We had it on the run in November, and then spectacularly blew it with the nonsense of Saving Christmas ..Our estimate is that Saving Christmas cost 1000 lives. Much worse in the UK. Even today the infection rates and death rates in the UK are pro rata the same as ours .. and we have not had the vaccines for as long.

Why is France /Italy/Germany now suffering a further wave???
Your arguments are hypothetical and irrelevant.
We have a good vaccine, we know its safe, we know it works. Let's make it and get on with vaccinating people. It's not complicated.

 

[Danidl]

Potential for EU-UK vaccine collaboration despite AstraZeneca row

Analysis: joint investment in scaling up production could be on cards if differences can be resolved

www.theguardian.com

Better news, let's hope it comes to fruition.
Interestingly the factory producing vaccine for AZ in Netherlands has not yet got EMA approval???

There are other AZ plants. .. That one is a very new plant ,but there is another in Belgium's and the bottling plant or finishing plant is in Italy.

 

[Danidl]

Why is France /Italy/Germany now suffering a further wave???
Your arguments are hypothetical and irrelevant.
We have a good vaccine, we know its safe, we know it works. Let's make it and get on with vaccinating people. It's not complicated.

..We cannot get enough of it!. Even you in the UK cannot make enough of it, which is why you want to import from India. Meanwhile the EU has exported 42M doses around the world ,mainly of the Pfizer ..including 10million to the UK since February. Where do you think that Israel, and Canada and Australia got their vaccines ?.

 

[Danidl]

Not true. The greatest risk of causing mutations is applying partial doses of vaccines and allowing them to stay partial for extended periods. The longer the period, the more opportunity the virus has to evolve a mutant.

Those who haven't had any partial dose of the vaccine cannot produce a variant without catching the virus first. The risk of the minority who do catch it producing a variant is far less than that with a partially vaccinated person since the vaccine gives the virus a head start.

The situation with antibiotics is somewhat similar, not completing a course and killing off the infection allows the bacteria to evolve into a resistant strain. It's how we created the so called superbugs like MRSA which have killed large numbers.

None of this requires one to have specialised medical knowledge, it's long been common knowledge among educated and intelligent people
.

Careful now flecc.. thems fighting words .. Intelligent and educated .. be damned.

 

[flecc]

Have a word with Chris Witty,seems you know more than he does. Give him a ring flecc. He obviously doesn't know all you mention. Unbelievable.

Utter nonsense, he knows the common knowledge I posted and has never said anything to the contrary, not will he ever.

You are getting confused between decreasing the rate of infection which is Whitty's two dose delay strategy, and increasing variants which he has acknowledged is a serious risk of his strategy.
.

 

[Zlatan]

Careful now flecc.. thems fighting words .. Intelligent and educated .. be damned.

Obviously Chris Witty isn't, whereas Flecc is..

 

[Jesus H Christ]

The EU has lost 4days worth of vaccine time with what was 10% of its product.. or a reduction in production of 0.4days . Well more significant in Ireland because it took us 6 days to get back on track, and we use 20% of AZ in our mix but then we had to deal with our National Holiday and beating England in Rugby.
The EU and EMA couldn't authorise the AZ until they requested it... And that was done in a fortnight.
The Pfizer was a month later than the UK, because the full protocol was carried out.
The only truth you have expressed is that the threat of death from the virus is more significant than the threat from any of the authorised vaccines.

The EU had lost 4 days

Multiply that by 3 and say weeks, not days and you will be somewhere near.

Over 30 million Covid vaccination procedures have now been carried out in the U.K.

 

[oldgroaner]

the EU's approach is fact based, cautious and flexible.
Approve the AZ vaccine even with limited trial results, leave the use and deployment to members to decide for themselves and pool the resources and studies.
It minimises the risk to the population while wasting nothing.
BJ made a bet which seems a good one at the moment but it could still go wrong.
If for example a new vaccine resistant variant appears in the UK, what would our government do?

Panic and blame the EU is a pretty dead cert

 

[sjpt]

There's big difference between a "real worry" and "very unlikely".

There is a big difference, but they are not mutually incompatible.

 

[Zlatan]

Utter nonsense, he knows the common knowledge I posted and has never said anything to the contrary, not will he ever.

You are getting confused between decreasing the rate of infection which is Whitty's two dose strategy, and increasing variants which he has acknowledged is a serious risk of his strategy.
.

I, ll find it flecc. He said, and it's about 3 weeks ago, after been asked that very question,that yes it's a worry but a smaller worry than alternative.