Brexit, for once some facts.

[Zlatan]

Radio 2 just had good talk about vaccine.
Sarah Jarvis talking sense as usual. Vaccine is safe. Incidence of clots ( and bleeding) are identical in the 10 million of AZ recipients and the 10 million Pfizer and those of population at large.
Phone her up OG, they are taking calls. Tell her your concerns. Sure she, ll have a good argument with you.. I, m not anymore.

 

[Zlatan]

Still starting arguments OG.

OG you are searching for negative aspects. It's not an argument, it's a fact. And I said some have different attitudes to vaccine than others, that's not critical. You and Flecc do have different attitudes towards it than most. So what?
You, as normal, just want to argue, whether I ignore you, respond or not. Its ridiculous.

 

[Zlatan]

Then why don't you stop why did you feel the need to respond as you did?

I said some on here search for negative aspects. Some do. Fact. That's all I said, wasn't even aimed at you. It was a general true statement. You and 2 or 3 others thrive on anything negative. Fact.
I, ve put you back on ignore. Quite pointless but might work one day. Had a chat with mods other day. They agreed ignore function is pointless as is, especially when posters continue replying. They are looking into it.This situation and the general one of ignore function,which plainly just does not work.

 

[flecc]

Imagine how our governments would modify their stances if enough folk in country took same stance as OG, Flecc and a few others. Leave it to the experts.

The countries stopping the vaccine use aren't banning it, they are just taking a sensible precaution for a short period until it's more certain there's no complications. A pity our experts didn't do that with Thalidomide and the processing that led to BSE.
.

 

[Danidl]

Seems some on here want to search and latch on to whatever negative aspects about vaccine they can find.
Had a report sent from Midi Pyrenes magazine,which sums it up quite well.
I,ve attached it, can't send link.
View attachment 41315
View attachment 41316
View attachment 41317
View attachment 41318
It's a bit mixed but general points
334 million vaccines World wide, . 30 problems with blood clots. Would those 30 have had clotting problems anyway. It's a fairly common complaint, millions and millions are on blood thinners for a reason.
Makes point their appears to be a direct correlation between many things, when there is not. (Eg, increase in organic food matches perfectly increase in autism cases. Should organic food be banned? Care must be taken from both stand points.
Topically, initial reports said Marvin Hagler had died post vaccine with reaction, complications. Family had to release statement "Marvin was taken to hospital with severe chest pains and breathing difficulties, it was not connected at all to vaccine, he hadn't had one"..What an appalling liberty to take by anti vaxxers at such a terrible time.
Again, it's dangerous for us to jump to conclusions, which I think the governments suspending vaccine are doing. Interestingly the medical associations advising the 4 (or is it now 5?)governments taking that stance have advised against it. Who, EMA, Mhra, JVCI, and AZ all say vaccine is safe. Again, leave it to them. I suspect there is a lot of political shaninigans and catering to social media in name of popularity by the 4 governments.
Imagine how our governments would modify their stances if enough folk in country took same stance as OG, Flecc and a few others. Leave it to the experts.

Sorry. Z, but The decision to defer this AZ vaccine is personally a real downer. As I reported my son with CF was scheduled for it on Wednesday. We need to leave it to experts, . I do not suspect political shenanigans..(unless they are UK sourced and suppression of data)..and I am not unto that conspiracy theories either. There is a lot of jingoism tied up in this.
Your figures are skewed in relation to vaccination . Firstly the total number of AZ vaccine in arms is in the 10 s of millions, and the majority are in UK arms, following UK manufacturing. There have been 100,000 AZ vaccines used in Ireland, and 950 adverse reactions reported... Note in fairness the vast majority are of the minor complaints, ..swelling, headaches etc which disappears in a few days But some do include blood clots . Now all AZ vaccine in Ireland has been given to healthy young people..health care professionals, so its use in an elderly cohort with propensity to blood problems is not yet a factor.

 

[Zlatan]

Sorry. Z, but The decision to defer this AZ vaccine is personally a real downer. As I reported my son with CF was scheduled for it on Wednesday. We need to leave it to experts, . I do not suspect political shenanigans..(unless they are UK sourced and suppression of data)..and I am not unto that conspiracy theories either. There is a lot of jingoism tied up in this.
Your figures are skewed in relation to vaccination . Firstly the total number of AZ vaccine in arms is in the 10 s of millions, and the majority are in UK arms, following UK manufacturing. There have been 100,000 AZ vaccines used in Ireland, and 950 adverse reactions reported... Note in fairness the vast majority are of the minor complaints, ..swelling, headaches etc which disappears in a few days But some do include blood clots . Now all AZ vaccine in Ireland has been given to healthy young people..health care professionals, so its use in an elderly cohort with propensity to blood problems is not yet a factor.

I agree Danidl, it should not be happening. Not sure why you apologised, we are actually saying same thing.. Governments postponing or whatever you decide to call it, is a mistake and made for wrong reasons.
Doctor on radio this am actually said there is no mechanism to link vaccine with blood clots. Sarah Jarvis explained that actually the clotting/bleeding is a sign of previous covid infection and that it's more likely these very people need the vaccine more than general public. (she suspects the clots are in people with past unspotted covid)
I really think the decision has been made for wrong reasons. All medical authorities are saying there is absolutely no link (and BTW) no deaths?? These governments are not following the science.
My condolences Danidl. It will sort itself out. I, m sure. Apologies if you think I was in any way not sympathetic to your situation. It wasn't intended.

 

[Danidl]

I’ve noticed that after I had my AZ vaccine on Friday, Mrs Harrison’s cat, which lives next door but one, was sick on my lawn! Should the EU now suspended all AZ vaccination until the link between the two events is proven to be broken?

.. what makes you think they are unrelated?. That poor cat might have seen your face!

 

[Danidl]

I agree Danidl, it should not be happening. Not sure why you apologised, we are actually saying same thing.. Governments postponing or whatever you decide to call it, is a mistake and made for wrong reasons.
Doctor on radio this am actually said there is no mechanism to link vaccine with blood clots. Sarah Jarvis explained that actually the clotting/bleeding is a sign of previous covid infection and that it's more likely these very people need the vaccine more than general public. (she suspects the clots are in people with past unspotted covid)
I really think the decision has been made for wrong reasons. All medical authorities are saying there is absolutely no link (and BTW) no deaths?? These governments are not following the science.
My condolences Danidl. It will sort itself out. I, m sure. Apologies if you think I was in any way not sympathetic to your situation. It wasn't intended.

That Jarvis hypothesis is very interesting and needs clearing up.. I am hoping this is an "abundance of caution " reaction. The medical authorities are not saying clean bill of health ,. And there have been deaths On the underlying argument that even if the vaccine carries a finite but known risk of fatality, it can still be the better course of action.

 

[Zlatan]

That Jarvis hypothesis is very interesting and needs clearing up.. I am hoping this is an "abundance of caution " reaction. The medical authorities are not saying clean bill of health ,. And there have been deaths On the underlying argument that even if the vaccine carries a finite but known risk of fatality, it can still be the better course of action.

No deaths with clots.. So Sarah Jarvis insisted.
I don't think it is an abundance of caution at all. Every "expert" from all medical side are saying same. Not related. Which ministers have decided to go against WHO, EMA, Mhra and their own medical teams and why. (Irish doctor was backing up opinion expressed by Jarvis??)
I suspect this is a case of getting popularity by appearing to be cautious..??
And, yet again, these actions undermine confidence in the vaccine. When they decide to change back they will then be wondering why take up is so poor.
And, insisting there have been deaths is misleading. The question is has death rate been slightest higher in vaccinated groups against none vaccinated. Of course people are dying. They are doing that all the time.
Somebody on here other day was saying a care home had had 5 deaths post vaccination and suggesting a possible link. Well unfortunately people in care homes do die, all the time. The question really should be are any deaths linked to direct negative affects of vaccine, or is it simply a case of seriously health disadvantaged are dying any way and perhaps can't cope with any interventions...
As, I, ve said all along, just leave it to MHRA, PHE, EMA etc etc. We look at figures and jump to wrong conclusions, all the time.
Little knowledge and all that, and the damned Internet. Every body is an expert at everything these days,well they think they are.

 

[Jesus H Christ]

.. what makes you think they are unrelated?. That poor cat might have seen your face!

That’s the best post you’ve ever made on this thread.

 

[flecc]

As, I, ve said all along, just leave it to MHRA, PHE, EMA etc etc.

Oyster has posted sound reasons why the MHRA can't be trusted. LINK

The government is shutting down PHE so they aren't any help.

And why are you trusting EMA, I thought you believed everything European was rubbish?
.

 

[Woosh]

I, ve said all along, just leave it to MHRA, PHE, EMA etc etc.

zlatan, you should have watched BBC Breakfast this morning featuring Dr Jenny Harries (Deputy Chief Medical Officer for England).
She was on camera encouraging people to stick with their plan attending the Cheltenham races about this time last year.
That's government scientist for you.

 

[Zlatan]

Oxford boss reassures public over AstraZeneca vaccine after blood clot reports

Professor Andrew Pollard, head of the Oxford University vaccine group, has said that there is no link between the Oxford-AstraZeneca jab and blood clots after Denmark, Norway, Bulgaria, Iceland and Thailand all suspended use of the jab

www.mirror.co.uk

I never said anything derogatory about EMA at all. Said they were slow authorising vaccine, and that generally EU had performed poorly with roll out.???
As a body don't think there is anything to criticise them, just that Mhra got task done quicker.

 

[Zlatan]

zlatan, you should have watched BBC Breakfast this morning featuring Dr Jenny Harries.
She was on camera encouraging people to stick with their plan attending the Cheltenham races about this time last year.
That's government scientist for you.

Well ignore them Woosh, don't have vaccine. Free world, nobody making you. I, ll be having my second jab ASAP tho.

 

[Danidl]

No deaths with clots.. So Sarah Jarvis insisted.
I don't think it is an abundance of caution at all. Every "expert" from all medical side are saying same. Not related. Which ministers have decided to go against WHO, EMA, Mhra and their own medical teams and why. (Irish doctor was backing up opinion expressed by Jarvis??)
I suspect this is a case of getting popularity by appearing to be cautious..??
And, yet again, these actions undermine confidence in the vaccine. When they decide to change back they will then be wondering why take up is so poor.
And, insisting there have been deaths is misleading. The question is has death rate been slightest higher in vaccinated groups against none vaccinated. Of course people are dying. They are doing that all the time.
Somebody on here other day was saying a care home had had 5 deaths post vaccination and suggesting a possible link. Well unfortunately people in care homes do die, all the time. The question really should be are any deaths linked to direct negative affects of vaccine, or is it simply a case of seriously health disadvantaged are dying any way and perhaps can't cope with any interventions...
As, I, ve said all along, just leave it to MHRA, PHE, EMA etc etc. We look at figures and jump to wrong conclusions, all the time.
Little knowledge and all that, and the damned Internet. Every body is an expert at everything these days,well they think they are.

There may have been no deaths in the UK from blood clots , but there were elsewhere. Again whether there is a causal relationship is undetermined at present.. Now the spokeswoman for AZ cannot have helped the side of Science if she states that there are less than normal .. unless the UK AZ has special powers.
Now the statement of " No Evidence of ....****" Is highly reminiscent of responses by the outside world January 12 months ago to CV19 in China. When used in the Scientific context it means exactly what it says on the tin....

 

[Zlatan]

There may have been no deaths in the UK from blood clots , but there were elsewhere. Again whether there is a causal relationship is undetermined at present.. Now the spokeswoman for AZ cannot have helped the side of Science if she states that there are less than normal .. unless the UK AZ has special powers.

There have been no deaths world wide owing to blood clots with a proven link to vaccine.
Obviously there have been blood clot deaths, heart attacks and strokes are effectively blood clots. But at the moment there is no link between any blood clots and vaccines, so there have been no deaths owing to clots caused by vaccine.
EMA, Mhra, WHO and every health spokesperson I have heard has said exactly that. But by all means jump to conclusions, don't have your second jab. That's your choice but stop making things up and establishing links that do not exist.
Or you think we should all stop administering both vaccines,becausevthe number of clots found is equal in both groups, but its equal to non vaccinated group as well. Folk on here know better than EMA, Who, and Mhra.???
And as for saying I discredited EMA but now I, m listening to them, you are doing exactly same. When they took their time with authorisation it was fine. Now they say vaccine is safe. They are wrong. I, m being consistent. Throughout this I, ve said follow the advice of Mhra, JVCI, PHE (or their replacement)???
When Mhra, JVCI say there is a link I, d support them stopping roll out. But they are saying no link.So move on.

The link between the AstraZeneca vaccine and blood clots: why it is safe to have the jab

After countries across Europe temporarily suspended the vaccine, we ask the experts if safety concerns are justified

www.telegraph.co.uk

Thailand has lifted suspension. Germany introduced one.

 

[oldgroaner]

Radio 2 just had good talk about vaccine.
Sarah Jarvis talking sense as usual. Vaccine is safe. Incidence of clots ( and bleeding) are identical in the 10 million of AZ recipients and the 10 million Pfizer and those of population at large.
Phone her up OG, they are taking calls. Tell her your concerns. Sure she, ll have a good argument with you.. I, m not anymore.

Still haven't got it have you, I am in favour of using the vaccine is there some reason you can't understand that?
I wasn't causing the argument, you do it automatically when there wasn't anything to disagree about was there?

 

[Zlatan]

Still haven't got it have you, I am in favour of using the vaccine is there some reason you can't understand that?
I wasn't causing the argument, you do it automatically when there wasn't anything to disagree about was there?

My apologies, I, d thought you were agreeing with countries suspending vaccine roll out.

 

[Danidl]

There have been no deaths world wide owing to blood clots with a proven link to vaccine.
Obviously there have been blood clot deaths, heart attacks and strokes are effectively blood clots. But at the moment there is no link between any blood clots and vaccines, so there have been no deaths owing to clots caused by vaccine.
EMA, Mhra, WHO and every health spokesperson I have heard has said exactly that. But by all means jump to conclusions, don't have your second jab. That's your choice but stop making things up and establishing links that do not exist.
Or you think we should all stop administering both vaccines,becausevthe number of clots found is equal in both groups, but its equal to non vaccinated group as well. Folk on here know better than EMA, Who, and Mhra.???
And as for saying I discredited EMA but now I, m listening to them, you are doing exactly same. When they took their time with authorisation it was fine. Now they say vaccine is safe. They are wrong. I, m being consistent. Throughout this I, ve said follow the advice of Mhra, JVCI, PHE (or their replacement)???
When Mhra, JVCI say there is a link I, d support them stopping roll out. But they are saying no link.So move on.

The link between the AstraZeneca vaccine and blood clots: why it is safe to have the jab

After countries across Europe temporarily suspended the vaccine, we ask the experts if safety concerns are justified

www.telegraph.co.uk

Thailand has lifted suspension. Germany introduced one.

"There have been no deaths world wide owing to blood clots with a PROVEN link to vaccine." ... Of course not . that is what is under investigation. There have been deaths due to blood clots . There have been deaths due to blood clots in persons who previously had the AZ Vaccine . Is there a causal relationship ? Hopefully not.
The Telegraph article is over egging the pudding ... The Nordic announcements did not cause the Irish to do a temporary ban , what it did was prompted a quick assessment of whatever incidents were reported in Ireland ... the 950 , I referred to earlier, and a few of these had minor blood clot events. And that is how things like this occur. Someone cries wolf, and then the prudent householder looks out the window.

 

[Zlatan]

"There have been no deaths world wide owing to blood clots with a PROVEN link to vaccine." ... Of course not . that is what is under investigation. There have been deaths due to blood clots . There have been deaths due to blood clots in persons who previously had the AZ Vaccine . Is there a causal relationship ? Hopefully not.
The Telegraph article is over egging the pudding ... The Nordic announcements did not cause the Irish to do a temporary ban , what it did was prompted a quick assessment of whatever incidents were reported in Ireland ... the 950 , I referred to earlier, and a few of these had minor blood clot events. And that is how things like this occur. Someone cries wolf, and then the prudent householder looks out the window.

And in mean time confidence is destroyed in vaccine, many folk are disappointed ( I believe as you were) and a slow roll out is slowed further with no gains whatsoever and the entire medical world still all saying same thing"no link".
Don't get me wrong Danidl, had there been a link, without doubt the vaccine should have been suspended pending investigation. But this could happen every week,especially so as more are vaccinated, people will continue being ill, continue dying vaccinated or not. Yes, of course medical profession make mistakes but on this aspect not a single medical authority/organisation has said there is a link. Quite the reverse, in every instance, every one of them has said "no link". Yet, some ministers of certain countries chose to suspend the roll out. What next? Folk having migraines? Folk having falls?
We should listen to what the entire authorisation community has been saying. For once they are all agreed. If EMA had disagreed with Mhra I could understand the confusion but all of them have said from the out set "there is no link". So what evidence have Austria, Ireland etc governments used to arrive at suspension???
It's a massive decision with repercussions down the line. Don't think it will affect things here in UKbut confidence is already very low elsewhere. I think suspension has been very premature. But WTF do I know. Like I, ve said before I just listen to those I think know way more than us. Mhra and JVCI.