Brexit, for once some facts.

[Zlatan]

You might have expected them to shout that from the rooftops.

Would be hard to keep quiet tho if folk were rolling up at hospital having been vaccinated 5 weeks earlier.
Folk becoming under weather and staying at home must be happening, I can vouch for that but if folk were still ending up in ICU the families would be straight to papers, social media etc. You can't keep anything quiet these days.. Personally, don't think it's happening. Besides would NHS still be so keen rolling out vaccine if essentially it wasn't working.. Becomes a pointless exercise. Can't see it myself.

 

[flecc]

Besides would NHS still be so keen rolling out vaccine if essentially it wasn't working.. Becomes a pointless exercise. Can't see it myself.

They could, after all the NHS are only applying it, the policy is their boss's, the government.

Begging the question, why would the government keep it going if it didn't work?

Perhaps reassuring the public that they are making progress, while hoping that the continuing growth in the infected would lead to stability as those available to be infected reduced to an ever smaller proportion of the population. No I'm not advocating herd immunity, but if all else fails it could be all we are left with.
.

 

[Zlatan]

They could, after all the NHS are only applying it, the policy is their boss's, the government.

Begging the question, why would the government keep it going if it didn't work?

Perhaps reassuring the public that they are making progress, while hoping that the continuing growth in the infected would lead to stability as those available to be infected reduced to an ever smaller proportion of the population. No I'm not advocating herd immunity, but if all else fails it could be all we are left with.
.

If you mistrusted NHS, PHE, Government and mass media enough I could see how you could believe that, but we are getting into realms of a massive conspiracy... But I just can't see how anybody could stop social media spreading the bad news. Its reckoned every person in hospital has on average 4 people at home, communicating and generally distanced caring for/with patient. That's a lot of Facebook, twitter, etc etc posts. Couldn't be done nowadays flecc. Government might be able to con population with their use of social media but they can't control what folk post.. Would go around like wildfire..
Folk are crying out for stuff to post, from what they are building in garage to what they had for brekky.
If grandad died, despite having had his first jab weeks ago, it would be on Social media before death certificate were written.

 

[flecc]

If you mistrusted NHS, PHE, Government and mass media enough I could see how you could believe that, but we are getting into realms of a massive conspiracy... But I just can't see how anybody could stop social media spreading the bad news. Its reckoned every person in hospital has on average 4 people at home, communicating and generally distanced caring for/with patient. That's a lot of Facebook, twitter, etc etc posts. Couldn't be done nowadays flecc. Government might be able to con population with their use of social media but they can't control what folk post.. Would go around like wildfire..
Folk are crying out for stuff to post, from what they are building in garage to what they had for brekky.
If grandad died, despite having had his first jab weeks ago, it would be on Social media before death certificate were written.

You're going to the extreme of the vaccine not working at all. I was considering it being less effective than claimed and government playing for time.

This is happening anyway. Over the last week or two we've heard constant reassurances that the vaccines are coping well with the new variants, but only today we learn that isn't true. Information link
.

 

[Zlatan]

You're going to the extreme of the vaccine not working at all. I was considering it being less effective than claimed and government playing for time.

This is happening anyway. Over the last week or two we've heard constant reassurances that the vaccines are coping well with the new variants, but only today we learn that isn't true. Information link
.

Not sure of your point here flecc. Yep, AZ have said it won't prevent mild symptoms of covid with South African variant but still no severe disease /death expected. They are planning on modifying vaccine to take this into account for autumn. It's exactly situation with flu vaccine now.
Nobody has claimed vaccine to be 100% effective in stopping infection. All along claim (and goal?) has been to prevent severe illness/death and so help bring hospital rates down and take away some of the fear around covid. Seems those goals are starting to be achieved but early days.

 

[oldgroaner]

If you mistrusted NHS, PHE, Government and mass media enough I could see how you could believe that, but we are getting into realms of a massive conspiracy... But I just can't see how anybody could stop social media spreading the bad news. Its reckoned every person in hospital has on average 4 people at home, communicating and generally distanced caring for/with patient. That's a lot of Facebook, twitter, etc etc posts. Couldn't be done nowadays flecc. Government might be able to con population with their use of social media but they can't control what folk post.. Would go around like wildfire..
Folk are crying out for stuff to post, from what they are building in garage to what they had for brekky.
If grandad died, despite having had his first jab weeks ago, it would be on Social media before death certificate were written.

So how do we explain the Israeli deaths?
Did they get a batch that was defective?
It's hard to explain with over a million injected there aren't at least some casualties simply goes against all logic

 

[Zlatan]

So how do we explain the Israeli deaths?
Did they get a batch that was defective?
It's hard to explain with over a million injected there aren't at least some casualties simply goes against all logic

I thought they, d said people vaccinated who died had caught infection earlier than the 3 weeks???
For some reason can't post link, but latest info I can find suggests vaccine is responsible for covid infection rates plummeting in Israel???
Last article I could find (6 days old tho) suggested those been treated for covid who had been vaccinated represented 0.1 % of hospitalisations.???

 

[oldgroaner]

Would be hard to keep quiet tho if folk were rolling up at hospital having been vaccinated 5 weeks earlier.
Folk becoming under weather and staying at home must be happening, I can vouch for that but if folk were still ending up in ICU the families would be straight to papers, social media etc. You can't keep anything quiet these days.. Personally, don't think it's happening. Besides would NHS still be so keen rolling out vaccine if essentially it wasn't working.. Becomes a pointless exercise. Can't see it myself.

And yet with over 100000 dead you would expect an absolute blizzard of comments on Twitter and yet there are only a handful so I'm not buying that premise at all I suspect the people are as a dying at home on their own without entering Hospital or people are simply not commenting because they're so upset

 

[oldgroaner]

I thought they, d said people vaccinated who died had caught infection earlier than the 3 weeks???
For some reason can't post link, but latest info I can find suggests vaccine is responsible for covid infection rates plummeting in Israel???
Last article I could find (6 days old tho) suggested those been treated for covid who had been vaccinated represented 0.1 % of hospitalisations.???

What they said that the deaths were largely among those who had the first injection only 2% of the deaths where those who had both injections at the correct interval
The simple fact remains there was a lot of dead bodies and we don't have any even though we have injected over a million people it simply isn't logical
Israeli evidence is that that to prevent mortalities you need both injections at the correct interval

 

[flecc]

Not sure of your point here flecc. Yep, AZ have said it won't prevent mild symptoms of covid with South African variant but still no severe disease /death expected. They are planning on modifying vaccine to take this into account for autumn. It's exactly situation with flu vaccine now.
Nobody has claimed vaccine to be 100% effective in stopping infection. All along claim (and goal?) has been to prevent severe illness/death and so help bring hospital rates down and take away some of the fear around covid. Seems those goals are starting to be achieved but early days.

Don't be so easily satisfied by carefully reworded news reporting which is obvious confuscation. This is the actual position in both the human trials and tests on the blood of those vaccinated:

“A two-dose regimen of [the vaccine] did not show protection against mild-moderate Covid-19 due to [the South African variant]”, the study says, adding that efficacy against severe Covid-19, hospitalisations and deaths was not yet determined."

That doesn't reassure me.
.

 

[Zlatan]

Don't be so easily satisfied by carefully reworded news reporting which is obvious confuscation. This is the actual position in both the human trials and tests on the blood of those vaccinated:

“A two-dose regimen of [the vaccine] did not show protection against mild-moderate Covid-19 due to [the South African variant]”, the study says, adding that efficacy against severe Covid-19, hospitalisations and deaths was not yet determined."

That doesn't reassure me.
.

That's fine flecc. Personally feel much happier vaccine is getting rolled out and do think we, ll got on top of this now. Wasn't convinced before... And I, m thankful daughter got her first jab... Could have been so different... Had government stuck to 3 week delay I doubt she'd have had vaccination. So, in a way thanks to all those waiting patiently for second jab..
I, ve been pleasantly surprised infection rate went down so quickly but I, m afraid with all calls to open society up before we, ve actually got hold of this will lead to another wave. Doesn't seem to have to be much good news before some business leader is calling to open pubs etc etc. There doesn't seem to be enough folk calling for "let's just get on top of this fully"... Its more "oh, we, ve had under 20k infections today, when are pubs opening"... Wrong attitude IMO..Think that's more dangerous than vaccine strategy.

 

[Woosh]

it was a double blind study. 1000 out of 2000 adults averaging 31 years old were given a placebo. None got hospitalised or died.
The study says that the vaccine did not make much difference.
There isn't much we can do but wait for the V2.0 of these vaccines.

 

[Zlatan]

it was a double blind study. 1000 out of 2000 adults averaging 31 years old were given a placebo. None got hospitalised or died.
The study says that the vaccine did not make much difference.
There isn't much we can do but wait for the V2.0 of these vaccines.

Will you be having yours then Woosh?

 

[Zlatan]

Oxford Covid-19 vaccine Q&A: How effective is it, and how is it different to the Pfizer vaccine?

The rollout of the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine has begun in the UK - here is everything we know so far

www.telegraph.co.uk

This must all be lies...???

 

[Woosh]

Will you be having yours then Woosh?

I had my first jab, AZ, last Friday.
Whenever the second jab is on offer, I'll take it, preferably another vaccine than the same AZ.

This must all be lies...???

No. The numbers are too small to make a proper assessment.
10 hospitalised and one death among those receiving a placebo.

 

[flecc]

Oxford Covid-19 vaccine Q&A: How effective is it, and how is it different to the Pfizer vaccine?

The rollout of the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine has begun in the UK - here is everything we know so far

www.telegraph.co.uk

This must all be lies...???

Yes, but as much by obfuscation and vagueness than direct lying.

I don't believe this bit for one moment:

"In a major vindication of government policy, the study also found that the vaccine is more effective overall if the second dose is delayed from 28 days until 90 days."

It directly contradicts everything previously reported. Bo!!ocks in other words, studies carried out in ways specifically to find a desired answer.
.

 

[Zlatan]

ChAdOx1 nCov-19 provides minimal protection against mild-moderate COVID-19 infection from B.1.351 coronavirus variant in young South African adults | University of Oxford

In an analysis, submitted as a pre-print prior to peer-review publication, a two-dose regimen of the ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 vaccine provides minimal protection against mild-moderate COVID-19 infection from the B.1.351 coronavirus variant first identified in South Africa.

www.ox.ac.uk

 

[Nev]

ChAdOx1 nCov-19 provides minimal protection against mild-moderate COVID-19 infection from B.1.351 coronavirus variant in young South African adults | University of Oxford

In an analysis, submitted as a pre-print prior to peer-review publication, a two-dose regimen of the ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 vaccine provides minimal protection against mild-moderate COVID-19 infection from the B.1.351 coronavirus variant first identified in South Africa.

www.ox.ac.uk

South African have just suspended use of the AZ vaccine. This is from the live news update page from the Guardian.
South Africa suspends use of Oxford vaccine
South Africa will suspend use of the Oxford/AstraZeneca jab in its vaccination programme while scientists advise on the best way to proceed, the country’s health minister said on Sunday in comments reported by Reuters.
Zweli Mkhize was speaking after trial data showed the AstraZeneca vaccine offered only limited protection against mild disease caused by the 501Y.V2 coronavirus variant first identified in South Africa.
Researchers have warned that vaccines’ focus needs to shift from population immunity to protecting individuals from hospitalisation and death.
“These findings recalibrate thinking about how to approach the pandemic virus and shift the focus from the goal of herd immunity against transmission to the protection of all at-risk individuals in population against severe disease,” said Prof Shabir Madhi from the University of the Witwatersrand, who led the Oxford/AstraZeneca trial in South Africa. The data will be published in the coming days.

 

[Nev]

I asked my wife today if she knew of anyone in her area that had been given the vaccine and had died sometime later. She said yes she knew of two people. Both of them were in their 80s but a few weeks after getting the vaccine they both died. Cause of death was said to be Covid, I don't think either of these deaths was reported either nationally or locally.

All NHS staff have been warned about posting things about Covid on social media or about talking to media so I will not be going into great detail about all this as I would not want her to get into trouble with her employers. What I would say is that we do not live in an area with huge populations, so if she is aware of two people dying of Covid after having the vaccine then I would imagine this is happening all over the country.

Having said all this when I get the chance to have the vaccine I will certainly take it, but I suspect some information about deaths of people from Covid who have had the vaccine are being kept quiet.

If we think about it I am sure I have read the AZ vaccine is only around 50 to 60% effective after the first dose so it stands to reason that people will go on to catch the virus even after getting the vaccine, and some of those are likely to go on and die.

The trials only had a few hundred over 65s taking part we are now vaccinating millions of them, so some deaths are almost certain to take place.

 

[flecc]

If we think about it I am sure I have read the AZ vaccine is only around 50 to 60% effective after the first dose so it stands to reason that people will go on to catch the virus even after getting the vaccine, and some of those are likely to go on and die.

The trials only had a few hundred over 65s taking part we are now vaccinating millions of them, so some deaths are almost certain to take place.

Yes, they initially reported 52% from their trials,

Since then there's been so much propaganda that the facts tend to get buried. I'm also sure some of the less convenient things like deaths after the jab are being concealed to maintain public confidence in the way the pandemic is being handled.
.