Brexit, for once some facts.

Woosh

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over time, the centre of gravity of financial businesses will move to the EU27.
Brexit will simply hasten the move, especially if we distance ourselves from the EU and attach to the USA.
 

oldgroaner

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Nov 15, 2015
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NHS targets to be scrapped

Matt Hancock signals A&E waiting targets likely to be scrapped
Health secretary defends NHS’s performance and says targets should be ‘clinically appropriate’
Matt Hancock has signalled that four-hour waiting targets for A&E are likely to be scrapped for the NHS in England after the worst figures on record this winter.

The health secretary said it would be better if targets were “clinically appropriate” and the “right targets”, as he defended the NHS’s failure to meet the standard that 95% of patients attending A&E should be admitted, transferred or discharged within four hours.

What do you expect when people were stupid enough to vote Conservative?
And this is only the start of the cuts
 

oldgroaner

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There is no chance that the SNP will arrange a referendum other than in accordance with the law.
An unofficial referendum, even if you could get the electorate to take part in one, would not only be illegal but would not be recognised internationally.
A yes result in an unofficial referendum would not put any pressure on the UK government as it could easily be dismissed due to its illegality and failure to properly represent the wishes of the electorate.
Strange, since that description fits the Brexit referendum!
The SNPmade the point in parliament before the referendum that it should require a "Super majority" and the Government refused to apply that on the basis that "It is Advisory only"
So how the hell have we ended up here, you may ask?
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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flecc, I have been reading your advocacy for ecars with interest, whereas 10 miles emergency range and selecting times , routes ,stop over places can fit into a retired or semi retired semi urban life, it will not work out elsewhere. Even in my circumstances.. also in the retired category, I might and am called at short notice to do 100 mile trips at short notice, waiting for an ambulance is not an option. So keeping a half tank of diesel ensures my availability
With many of the new generation of e-cars commonly offering a genuine 220 mile range and with a few at from 300 to even 500 miles, you'd have no problem. As I posted, like many e-car owners I charge at approaching half empty, which on a 220 mile car means you have your 100 miles plus in the tank, just like the diesel.

Add to that the fact that just one ultra-rapid charger en route will add a further around 125 miles in 15 minutes and you have well over 200 miles available at all times.

After all, if you are fit enough to safely drive 100 miles, you must surely be fit enough to wait 15 minutes, even though you wouldn't really need that extra range.
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flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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For disclosure- my father was a planning engineer for the distribution network and I was an engineer in a related discipline so I have an understanding of the current network, of course retired now I have little knowledge of what preparation, planning and cost provisions there are for the network going forward.

I see electric cars as a fairly small problem for the supply network compared to the huge issue of domestic heating.

For transportation I have a few hundred miles of spare range in a Jerry can in the shed but in general I go to a place to fill my vehicles with fuel. If I was using electric I would probably have to do the same and as charging stations develop that will become normal, I was an early adopter of diesel vehicles and very well remember queuing with the lorries to fill my saloon car at the one diesel pump.

But here is the thing, I can’t take my house anywhere to fill it up and the supply required to heat it is more substantial than the need to fuel a vehicle.

Here there are a dozen or so houses and some utilities fed from an overhead line , the pole pig is just about big enough and the line feeding it is single phase. To increase its capacity means replace not re size and that includes the overhead line and the transformer feeding it.

Apart from my house which uses a combination of coal and oil there is one other that uses tanked lpg. All others depend on oil for heating, generally cooking is split 33/66 gas electric. There is no mains gas and no realistic chance of providing it. As an aside, for transportation all bar one dwelling uses an ageing fleet of diesel vehicles including mainly 4x4 and a few tractors (there is one PEHV and of course now my ebike )

So move forward toward an electric future and we need to size the distribution to accommodate electrically heating all of these dwellings. I replaced an electric heating system here as it Wasn’t warm nor financially sustainable but in pure load terms my one dwelling caused the supply to sag when it came on. Multiply that issue by the dozen houses and it’s clear that it would be necessary to upgrade the distribution- we are not an untypical installation, there are great many rural communities in a similar position.

In urban areas it’s not very different, typically a developer approaches the DNO and says “I’m building a thousand homes.” So the DNO sizes the supply based on the historic model of diversity and digs in cable appropriately. Now all of a sudden we need to change that model significantly so we can all look forward to a fair bit of digging.

It’s all possible but it requires an effort x time which = money
Indeed, that's absolutely right gw8izr. I'm sure that's what is behind the government's wish to urgently upgrade home insulation standards, not that this will be sufficient to make up the shortfall. And of course what was behind the urgent push to smart meters, in the vain hope that would encourage a cut in consumption.

New build housing to ultra low energy use standards is of course the answer, but that is progressing at a snails pace at present with just a few sample schemes to show what is possible.
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oyster

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I can sympathise, when I first move to my present location we had power cuts with depressing regularity due to an infrastructure problem. A couple lasted over 24 hours.

Certainly to own an e-car you need a reliable supply or if an unreliable one, a nearby rapid charger on a better supply.

Much depends on mileage though, I almost never run below half charge so always have 60 to 80 miles in hand to reach a rapid charger, which is more than enough anywhere in the country. With newer e-cars having much longer ranges, electricity cuts in any one area won't be much of a problem.
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A few months ago we received notification that our local substation (might not be the exact term - but some grid connection/transformer equipment) is overloaded, and is reaching end of life and needs replacement. Until it is replaced, we might have supply issues - though they hoped to do the actual changeover either live or almost instantly.

In fact, our supply has been pretty good - only a few fairly modest cuts over the past three years. But I do think it necessary to take account of that warning.

I am also considering the issue of coming back from a relatively long journey that should be within range but finding ourselves short. Would be nice to know that there are chargers available. (I know there are at the motorway services on the way.)
 

flecc

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Theres some reality to what you describe. A used s85 will reliably do more than 200 miles on a charge with about 30 miles reserve. There is a phenomenon called vampire drain - the fact the the car uses an often quite considerable amount of electricity while not being used (you couldnt, for example, leave it in an airport car park for two weeks and expect to come back and have the capacity to do a 100 mile return journey home)
I don't suffer anything like that, despite my car being stuffed with electronic features. On the odd couple of occasions I've left mine unused for a week, it hasn't lost anything noticeable.

The worst car battery drain I've ever suffered was on the original Nissan Qashqai petrol model. Three weeks in summer or two and half in winter and it wouldn't start, needing a jump starter connected.
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oyster

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I don't suffer anythig like that, despite my car being stuffed with electronic features. On the odd couple of occasions I've left mine unused for a week, it hasn't lost anything noticeable.

The worst car battery drain I've ever suffered was on the original Nissan Qashqai petrol model. Three weeks in summer or two and half in winter and it wouldn't start, needing a jump starter connected.
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I know my (petrol) car progressively shuts things down - the longer it is left, the more is shut down. Never really taken much notice of exactly what but sometimes, after it has not been used for several days, things start up differently. I take that as evidence of it having reduced its battery usage. So far, never left it unused for as long as weeks.
 
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Woosh

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Add to that the fact that just one ultra-rapid charger en route will add a further around 125 miles in 15 minutes and you have well over 200 miles available at all times.
do you know how much is the usage cost (of adding 125 miles in 15 minutes) of one of those ultra rapid chargers?
 
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flecc

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I am also considering the issue of coming back from a relatively long journey that should be within range but finding ourselves short. Would be nice to know that there are chargers available. (I know there are at the motorway services on the way.)
I bet there are already, and there's plenty of options.

Driving an e-car brings a different mindset. Where on petrol or diesel we typically drive until going low and then fill, with e-cars we will commonly do a quick top up at an interim stage of the journey if there's any hint of marginality for the whole trip before setting out.

Eventually that different mindset will apply to ic cars. Filling stations for them are already down to below 6000 in the UK, having been around 10,000 at one time. In some rural areas they are already very far apart.
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gw8izr

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Indeed, that's absolutely right gw8izr. I'm sure that's what is behind the government's wish to urgently upgrade home insulation standards, not that this will be sufficient to make up the shortfall. And of course what was behind the urgent push to smart meters, in the vain hope that would encourage a cut in consumption.

New build housing to ultra low energy use standards is of course the answer, but that is progressing at a snails pace at present with just few sample schemes to show what is possible.
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And for sure electric heating isn’t the only solution, it was only making the point about whether the network can support charging electric cars. But unless some infrastructure changes are made the default will bimble down to the least effective solution of electric heating and all that entails. I think I calculated at one point that we would need something in the order of an extra 80 GW of generating capacity to heat our homes albeit only in winter. Now that was back of an envelope calculation and clever people will come up with a different figure but nonetheless a big chunk of power needed.

A lot has been discussed about converting the nations gas supply network to hydrogen which does change the dynamic significantly.

I think for oil users in rural communities biofuels are the first step and medium term hydrogen boilers as a direct replacement is something that will happen. I was responsible for a site in the Arctic Circle which was totally off grid and ran six months solar and six months hydrogen and it is very successful.

I suppose part of the evolution roadmap will be supplementing the existing oil boiler network with solar water heating. Certainly when I bought my oil boiler recently I made sure that it was an outdoor enclosure and the cylinder has capacity to be heated by solar and two electric elements with a view to covering the future.

Improving the efficiency of the existing housing stock is critical to maintaining our rural society. Imagine what would happen if the existing housing stock was suddenly devalued significantly because people could not afford to heat the older homes. We would all have to move to the cities to newbuilds, that would certainly reduce congestion and pollution in the cities
 
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flecc

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do you know how much is the usage cost (of adding 125 miles in 15 minutes) of one of those ultra rapid chargers?
I don't, my car from 2018 can't use their full rate.

In general though public chargers cost far more than charging at home, about double or a bit over at standard rate electricity prices. For most of us doing only some long trips that doesn't matter and it's still far cheaper than petrol or diesel.

Of course the profit on the current is what finances them, so I expect that will come down as e-cars grow in number, each charger gets more use, the competition element comes into play and drivers start choosing on price.
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gw8izr

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Of course the profit on the current is what finances them, so I expect that will come down as e-cars grow in number, each charger gets more use, the competition element comes into play and drivers start choosing on price.
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There will ultimately have to be a shift from taxing diesel and petrol to electric used for transportation.
 
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Barry Shittpeas

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With many of the new generation of e-cars commonly offering a genuine 220 mile range and with a few at from 300 to even 500 miles, you'd have no problem. As I posted, like many e-car owners I charge at approaching half empty, which on a 220 mile car means you have your 100 miles plus in the tank, just like the diesel.

Add to that the fact that just one ultra-rapid charger en route will add a further around 125 miles in 15 minutes and you have well over 200 miles available at all times.

After all, if you are fit enough to safely drive 100 miles, you must surely be fit enough to wait 15 minutes, even though you wouldn't really need that extra range.
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I have not paid much attention to electric cars, my first and only encounter being with the first generation of Nissan Leaf. That was a very capable car in terms of performance, but quite short on range, only about 60 miles moderately careful driving, less is driven in a sporty way. The owner also reported a slight, but noticeable drop in range after around three years.

Moving forwards to today, it sounds like I am out of touch. From what you report it sounds like an electric car would be viable for about 90% of my car journeys, which makes me interested. I would probably need to retain an ic car though, but certainly the "daily" car would be viable as an electric vehicle.

My garage, which I am in the process of having altered, has its own independent metered electrical supply, so I assume I could install a reasonably fast charger in there? I'm also intending to have solar panel mounting points installed when the new roof goes on which would give a comfortable 10 square metre south-southwest facing area, so that might help with charging, emissions and running costs.

I think the time has come to pay more attention to electric vehicle development. I don't buy cars very often, so by the time my next one is due, it could well be an electric vehicle.
 

flecc

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I think the time has come to pay more attention to electric vehicle development. I don't buy cars very often, so by the time my next one is due, it could well be an electric vehicle.
And by then it could well be viable for all your use, such is the pace of progress. It's been like the earlier computing days, buy one this year and next year it's out of date.
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Woosh

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There will ultimately have to be a shift from taxing diesel and petrol to electric used for transportation.
maybe not in my lifetime.
 
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Barry Shittpeas

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And by then it could well be viable for all your use, such is the pace of progress. It's been like the earlier computing days, buy one this year and next year it's out of date.
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But unlike computers, which rapidly lost value after a year, the second hand E-car market seems to be holding up well.
 
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jonathan.agnew

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I have not paid much attention to electric cars, my first and only encounter being with the first generation of Nissan Leaf. That was a very capable car in terms of performance, but quite short on range, only about 60 miles moderately careful driving, less is driven in a sporty way. The owner also reported a slight, but noticeable drop in range after around three years.

Moving forwards to today, it sounds like I am out of touch. From what you report it sounds like an electric car would be viable for about 90% of my car journeys, which makes me interested. I would probably need to retain an ic car though, but certainly the "daily" car would be viable as an electric vehicle.

My garage, which I am in the process of having altered, has its own independent metered electrical supply, so I assume I could install a reasonably fast charger in there? I'm also intending to have solar panel mounting points installed when the new roof goes on which would give a comfortable 10 square metre south-southwest facing area, so that might help with charging, emissions and running costs.

I think the time has come to pay more attention to electric vehicle development. I don't buy cars very often, so by the time my next one is due, it could well be an electric vehicle.
And used prices will likely become more affordable (a used leaf go for as little as 6k, in usa used s85s for around 17k $)
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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There will ultimately have to be a shift from taxing diesel and petrol to electric used for transportation.
I don't think that can easily happen, the snag being that they can be charged from a home 13 amp point. Indeed I do half my charging that way to give the battery the easiest possible life.

Obviously home owners couldn't accept or even afford such a massive increase in electricity prices, just look at how little of the cost of diesel and petrol is in the prices we pay per litre..

I think governments are going to come up with a very different taxation model and stop depending so much on road use fuels. There's plenty of time for them to work that out and transition, since it will be 15 to 20 years before the swing to electric cars makes them tip into being the majority.

And the pooling of e-car batteries then to support the grid is an important factor in handling future grid load peaks. Denmark already does this with e-car owners profiting from reduced electricity bills.
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