Brexit, for once some facts.

[Zlatan]

The whole of Iraq remains a war zone for the US military who defend against attacks on themselves and Iraqis in any area of the country, the enemy not excluding anywhere, including airports.

Iran is at war with the USA both by statements and actions. Germany wasn't at war with the UK in 1939, far from it. But it became at war with us when we declared war on them and attacked. A state of war doen't require any agreement, it often results from actions by one party.

The USA has always picked on smaller countries, Mexico, Spain, Korea, Vietnam, Somalia and various Central and South American countries. Trump is merely true to type.
.

They arent alone there though flecc. Problems around Indochina were effectively set on road to war by the French, when they marched back into Vietnam as Japanese were kicked out. At that time Vietnamese wanted to model their democracy on Americas. French went to great lengths to dispell that and convince USA Ho Chi Min wanted communism. He didnt. Rest is history.
Another problem is there are swathes of Middle East that do want to see Western Culture destroyed. Is that intrinsic or caused by our meddling, going all the way back to Crusades.(On Popes behalf)
Its all a terrible mess. We, ve all played our part and America, much as its guilty of interfering, its not guilty of Colonization,whereas French, Germany, UK, Dutch, Spanish and Portugese certainly were.

 

[Woosh]

there was anther theory why the Americans started a war in Vietnam: oil deposits around the Paracel Islands, just off the shores of South Vietnam.
Some deposits were eventually exploited after the war ended, not enough for Vietnam to export oil but still substantial contribution to their economy.
Current reserve estimates: 3-4 billion tonnes.

 

[Danidl]

I do agree but the difference being in the UK cases the offenders behaved in isolation with little or no authority back up. The Bonnie and Clyde was with instructions from the very top. (as was this attack on Soleimani)
Either way, after speaking with many Americans, I do think there is a differeny psyche around the issue. Europeans tend to think all folk, irrespective of behaviour, have rights. The Americans think those overstepping some mark lose them. I, m not judging either way. Different societies will judge things differently. Right and wrong is a subjective judgement call depending where you are standing.

I cannot agree that the Bloody Sunday event was just a few hothead Paras. It came from the top in Whitehall. Even having shock troops present was a command decision The Gibraltar incident might have been more local .
I do agree that the US citizens have a much more fundamentalist approach to crime. .. People lose all rights on conviction,including rights to vote. .. This is much more Old Testament than Christian. I try not to use the word Americans, because that includes Canadians ,and everyone south of Texas to Chile.

 

[oyster]

I try not to use the word Americans, because that includes Canadians ,and everyone south of Texas to Chile.

Philosophically, does that include Saint Pierre and Miquelon?

(Practically, doesn't make one iota of difference to anything.)

 

[flecc]

They arent alone there though flecc. Problems around Indochina were effectively set on road to war by the French, when they marched back into Vietnam as Japanese were kicked out. At that time Vietnamese wanted to model their democracy on Americas. French went to great lengths to dispell that and convince USA Ho Chi Min wanted communism. He didnt. Rest is history.
Another problem is there are swathes of Middle East that do want to see Western Culture destroyed. Is that intrinsic or caused by our meddling, going all the way back to Crusades.(On Popes behalf)
Its all a terrible mess. We, ve all played our part and America, much as its guilty of interfering, its not guilty of Colonization,whereas French, Germany, UK, Dutch, Spanish and Portugese certainly were.

Indeed history of what we've caused in many ways I've long known.

But it doesn't really matter any more, we can't undo the past so have to adopt the best course now. I think that's to detach ourselves from the affected regions and stop pretending to be their friends when we really aren't and have never been.
.

 

[Zlatan]

Indeed history of what we've caused in many ways I've long known.

But it doesn't really matter any more, we can't undo the past so have to adopt the best course now. I think that's to detach ourselves from the affected regions and stop pretending to be their friends when we really aren't and have never been.
.

If we did so do you think terrorist attacks would subside or increase?

Its quite easy for us all to be anti American and see them as aggressors but in many ways we have their presence and power to thank for the freedom we do enjoy in west.

Its a serious question. Are America, and ourselves, seen as responsible for current terror attacks and aggression in middle east or do we see these actions as responsible for the lack of it in West?
Are they causing or containing the issues? I wish I knew.
Trump has just made a massive demonstration of their capability killing an individual. Will it make Iran consider their realistic position without killing more?

 

[Woosh]

Are they causing or containing the issues?

they are causing more troubles for the world than they solve.
Just like organised religions.
This is because democracy systems in the West are driven legally by money. The corrupting effect of political donations and lobbying is so ingrained that nobody bothers to check its consequences.
All parties function only thanks to the money of tiny groups of individuals so they don't seek to represent all the people anymore, they only look after the interest of the few.

 

[Zlatan]

they are causing more troubles for the world than they solve.
Just like organised religions.
This is because democracy systems in the West are driven legally by money. The corrupting effect of political donations and lobbying is so ingrained that nobody bothers to check its consequences.
All parties function only thanks to the money of tiny groups of individuals so they don't seek to represent all the people anymore, they only look after the interest of the few.

Well I, m glad you know...
Was it Churchill who said "Democracy is tyranny by the uninformed"?
You could be right but without America its fairly certain we, d be speaking German and Royal Family would be Gotha Coburgs again. Or Russian.

 

[oldgroaner]

On the legality of the Soleimani killing
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2020/01/lies-the-bethlehem-doctrine-and-the-illegal-murder-of-soleimani/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
"Let us now move on to the next lie, which is being widely repeated, this time originated by Donald Trump, that Soleimani was responsible for the “deaths of hundreds, if not thousands, of Americans”. This lie has been parroted by everybody, Republicans and Democrats alike. "

"The truth of the matter is that if you take every American killed including and since 9/11, in the resultant Middle East related wars, conflicts and terrorist acts, well over 90% of them have been killed by Sunni Muslims financed and supported out of Saudi Arabia and its gulf satellites, and less than 10% of those Americans have been killed by Shia Muslims tied to Iran."

The Bethelehem Doctrine was used to justify Blair and Bush's invasion of Iraq

 

[oldgroaner]

Well I, m glad you know...
Was it Churchill who said "Democracy is tyranny of the uninformed"?
You could be right but without America its fairly certain we, d be speaking German and Royal Family would be Gotha Coburgs again. Or Russian.

Even more so without the Russians remember?

 

[oldgroaner]

From Reuters
!
The Japanese government announced late last month it will send a warship and patrol planes to the Middle East, from which it sources nearly 90% of its crude oil imports.


Japan, a U.S. ally that has maintained friendly ties with Iran, has opted to launch its own operation rather than join a U.S.-led mission to protect shipping in the region.

A Japanese defence ministry official has said the government aims to start the operation of the patrol planes sometime in January, while the destroyer will likely begin activities in the region in February.


It seems they have decided to put distance between themselves and the Americans, a wise strategy

 

[Zlatan]

Even more so without the Russians remember?

The Russians were on Hitlers side until he double crossed them.

 

[daveboy]

RIGHT NOW
Tehran said in a statement that its nuclear program would “have no limitations” on enriching uranium.
They have twigged that to resist America they need their own Nuclear Weapons
Trumo scores an "own goal" Bigly

So basically they have stated publicly the policy they have had privately for years.
Nobody believes they would stop their Nuclear program, They "twigged" they needed their own Nuclear weapons a long time ago and this attack by Trump is the start of attempting to shut that program down.
Any attempt by Iran to retaliate (real or made up by the USA) will result in "52" targets being eliminated, some or most of these will be sites that the USA has identified as being part of Iran's Nuclear program.

 

[Woosh]

It seems they have decided to put distance between themselves and the Americans, a wise strategy

rightly so.
the USA would threaten war with anyone who found themselves in their way, rightly or wrongly.

 

[oldgroaner]

The Russians were on Hitlers side until he double crossed them.

So were many in the Conservative party and the British press

 

[oldgroaner]

So basically they have stated publicly the policy they have had privately for years.
Nobody believes they would stop their Nuclear program, They "twigged" they needed their own Nuclear weapons a long time ago and this attack by Trump is the start of attempting to shut that program down.
Any attempt by Iran to retaliate (real or made up by the USA) will result in "52" targets being eliminated, some or most of these will be sites that the USA has identified as being part of Iran's Nuclear program.

If as you suggest "Nobody believes they would stop their Nuclear program," what was the point of Boris and co supporting the agreement?
You are contradicting yourself, after all it was often said
"No one believes Saddam doesn't have the bomb"
When he was telling the truth.
What the Media tell you as truth 'aint necessarily so.

 

[oldgroaner]

And what is Trumps new stroke of genius?
"If the Iraq government insists American troops leave the country he will slap severe sanctions on them"
The message is unfortunately very clear

 

[oldgroaner]

How can anyone regard a man as sane that can make this statement
" Mr Trump claimed that his tweets are sufficient notice to congress of any possible US military strike on Iran, in an apparent dismissal of his obligations under the War Powers Act of 1973.

 

[Danidl]

How can anyone regard a man as sane that can make this statement
" Mr Trump claimed that his tweets are sufficient notice to congress of any possible US military strike on Iran, in an apparent dismissal of his obligations under the War Powers Act of 1973.

Apparently the WhiteHouse did notify,using the proper channels ,Congress of its attack on Iraq, after the event.

 

[Danidl]

So were many in the Conservative party and the British press

I think the Russian pact, would have seriously discomforted those same people. They had seen Hitler as a bulwark against Communism.The mood music changed after the invasion of Poland