Brexit, for once some facts.

Barry Shittpeas

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With respect that isn't how the world works is it? this character was pretty much a hero to many of the locals, and being killed like a dog casually it would seem to them on the whim of the American President will cause them to exact revenge.
And now the Americans and of course us are being asked to leave the country by the Iraqi parliament.
So bang goes the war against ISIS
Truly an error of judgement on a par with Lincoln's to go to the Opera.
I believe that Adolf Hittler was a hero to thousands of people too. Being regarded as a hero isn’t really a factor.
 

oldgroaner

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The conundrum now, is will Trump take any notice of Iraq wanting him and us to leave the country?
It's hardly the case that they can force him to is it?
"
In an emergency session of the Iraqi parliament on Sunday, lawmakers voted in favor of a resolution asking the government to expel US troops from the country. The measure was passed with mostly Shiite factions voting in favor, while Kurdish and most Sunni members of parliament did not attend the session, presumably because they oppose ending the US presence in the country.

"The government commits to revoke its request for assistance from the international coalition fighting 'Islamic State' due to the end of military operations in Iraq and the achievement of victory," the resolution read.

"The Iraqi government must work to end the presence of any foreign troops on Iraqi soil and prohibit them from using its land, airspace or water for any reason," it continued.

This small fact seems to have eluded the news channels
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Muhandis was killed alongside Soleimani and eight others in the US drone strike on Friday.

From the Iraqi viewpoint, "the killing of Muhandis is more consequential than that of Soleimani, since he was one of the highest Iraqi security officials," Heiko Wimmen, the project director for Iraq, Syria and Lebanon at the International Crisis Group, told DW.

Collateral damage from "Friendly" fire?

This is interesting
https://www.dw.com/en/pressure-mounts-in-iraq-to-boot-out-us-troops/a-51892073
 
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oldgroaner

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I believe that Adolf Hittler was a hero to thousands of people too. Being regarded as a hero isn’t really a factor.
So they won't seek revenge because you don't think that is a factor?
I'm amazed. Trump also managed to kill Muhandis who is a local general and more popular that the Iranian general, and America is in Iraq at the request of the Iraqi government.
The Americans had no designs on the death they just dealt him, are you saying that some Iraqi hot heads won't seek revenge as well?
 
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Barry Shittpeas

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..Sorry Flecc, but this time you are incorrect.
1. The event occurred on the land area of a sovereign power .. Iraq
2. It was not authorised by that power.
3. It would be viewed as a terrorism attack by anyone else.
4. That the individual targeted was a serving officer of a country the USA has not declared war on, makes him an innocent..he may well have been a bloodthirsty bigot . So it was also an act of aggression against another sovereign state.

I am not at this post concerned with the morality of killing ,but its international lawfulness. I cannot see it as other than unlawful. I agree that the USA ,has done worse in recent days, including other attacks in Iraq.
The man was a menace. The longer he was able to go about his business, the more people he put at risk. He’s dead now, so he can’t harm anyone else. That’s the overwhelming priority. Waffling about nif-naf and trivia serves no purpose, the job has been done, it’s over.
 

Barry Shittpeas

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So they won't seek revenge because you don't think that is a factor?
I'm amazed.
They may choose to set themselves on a path great hardship and destruction by selecting revenge. That’s their choice.

Personally, I think they will huff & puff, make a few noises, but ultimately do very little. The average Iranian is a moderate & reasonable person ruled over by a few religious nutcases. The ruling regime has little support from the general population.
 

oldgroaner

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The man was a menace. The longer he was able to go about his business, the more people he put at risk. He’s dead now, so he can’t harm anyone else. That’s the overwhelming priority. Waffling about nif-naf and trivia serves no purpose, the job has been done, it’s over.
No, the problems are only just beginning
 
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oldgroaner

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They may choose to set themselves on a path great hardship and destruction by selecting revenge. That’s their choice.

Personally, I think they will huff & puff, make a few noises, but ultimately do very little. The average Iranian is a moderate & reasonable person ruled over by a few religious nutcases. The ruling regime has little support from the general population.
You have overlooked the Iraqi response.
https://www.dw.com/en/pressure-mounts-in-iraq-to-boot-out-us-troops/a-51892073
 

Woosh

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The man was a menace. The longer he was able to go about his business, the more people he put at risk.
I don't think many of us would worry about his welfare. It's about consequences of Trump's action and what he may do if the Iranians and others hit back.
The immediate result is an increase in petrol price plus heightened risk of more terrorism.
The longer term is the erosion of rule based institutions.
Trump polarises politics.
 

flecc

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1. The event occurred on the land area of a sovereign power .. Iraq
2. It was not authorised by that power.
3. It would be viewed as a terrorism attack by anyone else.
4. That the individual targeted was a serving officer of a country the USA has not declared war on, makes him an innocent.
In answer to:

1) The US military were there to fight terrorism, national and international, in Iraq with the Permission and welcome of the Iraqi parliament that the USA set up.

2) Not so, number one above is the authorisation to fight a soldier of the terrorist combatants.

3) Anyone else if judging impartially would recognise this killing as defence against a known terrorist killer, to prevent more atrocity. In Britain even the police kill in this way on our streets, several times shooting someone into the brain when they were already fully restrained. We have no right to condemn a soldier in an ongoing war being killed in a similar fashion.

4) As I've already explained, the USA does not have to declare war to defend. It is their choice when attacked to decide how to respond, and they can do that by reprisal and/or declaring war.
.
 

oldgroaner

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In answer to:

1) The US military were there to fight terrorism, national and international, in Iraq with the Permission and welcome of the Iraqi parliament that the USA set up.

2) Not so, number one above is the authorisation to fight a soldier of the terrorist combatants.

3) Anyone else if judging impartially would recognise this killing as defence against a known terrorist killer, to prevent more atrocity. In Britain even the police kill in this way on our streets, several times shooting someone into the brain when they were already fully restrained. We have no right to condemn a soldier in an ongoing war being killed in a similar fashion.

4) As I've already explained, the USA does not have to declare war to defend. It is their choice when attacked to decide how to respond, and they can do that by reprisal and/or declaring war.
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And no doubt they will simply close down the puppet government if it asks them to leave the country?
Where does this all end?
 

flecc

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And no doubt they will simply close down the puppet government if it asks them to leave the country?
Where does this all end?
I think they could just persuade the Iraqi government to change their mind.

Or on the other hand they could just use the Iraqi request as the excuse they've been looking for to get out of the region, both Trump's and US Congress wish.

The Iranians could see that as victory, softening their desire for revenge, so it could be smart move.
.
 

oldgroaner

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From the New York Times
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/05/world/middleeast/Iran-us-trump.html
Iran Ends Commitment to Landmark Nuclear Deal: Live Updates
The announcement followed a vote in Iraq’s Parliament to expel American troops, in response to the killing of Maj. Gen. Qassim Suleimani, a top Iranian commander, in Baghdad.

RIGHT NOW
Tehran said in a statement that its nuclear program would “have no limitations” on enriching uranium.
They have twigged that to resist America they need their own Nuclear Weapons
Trumo scores an "own goal" Bigly
 
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Woosh

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I think they could just persuade the Iraqi government to change their mind.

Or on the other hand they could just use the Iraqi request as the excuse they've been looking for to get out of the region, both Trump's and US Congress wish.

The Iranians could see that as victory, softening their desire for revenge, so it could be smart move.
.
if the US pull their troops, American companies won't be able to pump Iraqi oil.
Iraqis are interviewed by the BBC, they are fed up with the Americans who prop up a corrupt regime. Their country pumps record level of oil and yet, their government can't keep electricity or water running.
If they are free to choose their partners, I reckon that would be the EU.
 

Danidl

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The man was a menace. The longer he was able to go about his business, the more people he put at risk. He’s dead now, so he can’t harm anyone else. That’s the overwhelming priority. Waffling about nif-naf and trivia serves no purpose, the job has been done, it’s over.
All that may as be, but just read up on the consequences of the SAS team killing the three IRA people in Gibraltar,.. You could not make up the sequence of violence that unleashed, a movie script would have been rejected as improbable.
 

flecc

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if the US pull their troops, American companies won't be able to pump Iraqi oil.
Iraqis are interviewed by the BBC, they are fed up with the Americans who prop up a corrupt regime. Their country pumps record level of oil and yet, their government can't keep electricity or water running.
If they are free to choose their partners, I reckon that would be the EU.
All true, but the USA isn't dependent on any one country's oil any more.

It isn't the Iraqi government that's to blame for the power and water failings, that's entirely due to the US invasion destroying the infrastructure and the continuous disruption of conflict ever since preventing adequate rebuilding. I can't see any partner improving that in present Middle East circumstances, the whole area is a basket case.

The sooner the West gets right out of that area and stays out, the better.
.
 

Woosh

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All true, but the USA isn't dependent on any one country's oil any more.
as a country, the USA does not need importing oil or gaz but economically, they still derive income from their oil companies operating in the Middle East, Libya, Venezuela, Nigeria etc

Where American oil companies go, US troops go.
 
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Zlatan

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You are being a touch .... The structure of the response to the Bloody Sunday march in Derry, which was 40 years later than the Bonnie and Clyde incident illustrates that. The behaviour of the police/ army squad in Gibraltar another decade on shows that they had not learned. Both of these Human rights violations had extremely serious repercussions
I do agree but the difference being in the UK cases the offenders behaved in isolation with little or no authority back up. The Bonnie and Clyde was with instructions from the very top. (as was this attack on Soleimani)
Either way, after speaking with many Americans, I do think there is a differeny psyche around the issue. Europeans tend to think all folk, irrespective of behaviour, have rights. The Americans think those overstepping some mark lose them. I, m not judging either way. Different societies will judge things differently. Right and wrong is a subjective judgement call depending where you are standing.
 

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