You know what OG, I think that's probably unfair and wrong.
I'd say it's the UK public who have been the universal failures in creating this mess, by the ways they vote and who they vote for.
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Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
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I'd say it's the UK public who have been the universal failures in creating this mess, by the ways they vote and who they vote for.
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That really does show your total ignorance on this subject Zlatan, perhaps not surprising from someone who wasn't even alive at the time.
Willam Beveridge gave the principles of what was desirable, but Aneurin Bevan expanded on those and was the architect of the reforms, and also the forceful personality who drove them through parliament. Without Bevan they would never have existed, since mild mannered Attlee could never have done so without him.
As Churchill said of Attlee, "A modest man with much to be modest about". Attlee was very dependent on his radical team, people like Aneurin Bevan, Ernest Bevin, Hugh Dalton and Herbert Morrison.
Attlee himself only took the post of Minister of Defence in the cabinet, hardly taxing when the war had just been won!
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I don't need to look up Bevan. I'm well aware of how he despised Tories. I was around at the time, old enough to know what was happening and old enough to have suffered under what went before him.
And I've never mentioned Bevan being PM and never would since he'd have been totally unsuitable in that role. That possibility you just invented.
Drop it now Zlatan, you have no idea what you are talking about as I've shown on your silly notions about Bevan and I'm fed up with your penchant for inventing things that I've never said.
We have a democracy where many parties and individuals rarely or never get into power, simply because of the first past the post system. But once in a while it can happen and do great good, as 1945 showed. That alone is justification for it to continue, unless and until we get PR and coalitions.
That's far better than what you argue for, a parliament of centrist clones just there to get into power.
It had a choice, the Centrist left leaning party you say they want, the LibDems.
They just didn't know it.
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They dont have the socialists needed for folk to get a fair deal.
They had Swinson...
Besides the Labour voters wanted a Labour party they could believe in and trust to run country. Give them one and they will return.
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No because many people made a stupid choice that was actually against their best interests.
Nothing new there, which is why the Conservatives get in so often.
That isn't the problem, the problem is that they are so easily misled, for which unfortunately, there is no cure.
True, they needed Corbyn and McDonnell to do that
But if the anti Corbyns had all voted for the LibDems instead of switching to Tory, the LibDems would now be in power or balance of power with hundreds of left leaning liberal MPs to choose from.
I doubt Swinson would have survived for long, she'd have been quickly superceded.
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Those left leaning MPs need to be part of a wider Labour including such as Corbyn and McDonell. I dont get your stance flecc. I, m not arguing at all for demise of far left, quite reverse. I, m just telling you, and its been proved, our country does not want a Labour party containing just far left. They should be only a part of Labour movement as they were in the Labour Governments of past.
All past Labour Governments were led by far more moderate MPs. Attlee, Wilson, Kinnock, Blair all worked in much wider Labour Parties than our current Labour.
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That's it, blame the electorate.Cant all be educated and informed like you can we OG.
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This one doesn't. Half their MPs are still Blairites, much to Corbyn's disapproval.
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Again that's something in your mind. I haven't said that, I've said I don't mind if Labour doesn't get into power at present.
They will in the end, just as in the past. We are predominantly a small "c" conservative country, so any radical party only ever gets into power when the people finally lose patience with the establishment. Just as happened in 1945 when the people were finally utterly sick of the Tories and Tory policy.
Once they received the changes they wanted and the Tories had been tamed into acceptance, the people reverted to type and became conservative in attitude again.
If our new government veers well to the right and lasts more than one term, the same cycle will eventually happen again.
Unless by some miracle we get PR.
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The Irish passport office issued close to a million Irish Passports to eligible people last year . This is an increase of 7% on the year before . This includes UK, particularly NI citizens and the replacement market. Since all Ireland is 6 million , and the birth rate is 70,000 and therefore the replacement rate is about that, .. implies that a lot of UK people discovered their Irish roots
