Brexit, for once some facts.

[Fingers]

Not again silly boy
The EU referendum was won based on a corrupt campaign, but the courts can't void the result because the referendum only advisory, according to the barrister who took the government to court.
Based on Electoral Commission findings about overspending by Vote Leage, British people living in Europe launched a legal case arguing the referendum result should in effect be set aside. Last week, Court of Appeal judges denied them permission to appeal after losing the case.

Find something else to post to be annoying, you lost this one long ago

Corrupt you say?

Well this kicks it up a notch.

Has anyone been taken to court over this?

This is a very serious matter and could have a decisive say in running a second referendum. Surely we should get a judge or even the police to investigate?

If you have any evidence it's your duty to hand this information over. At least give it to me if you are worried about the publicity. This could make you very famous indeed.

Unless you are lying?

 

[Fingers]

Don't own a "tude" how am I supposed to be trying to stop democracy working?

Your attitude is very disappointing for someone of your age.

 

[oldgroaner]

Corrupt you say?

Well this kicks it up a notch.

Has anyone been taken to court over this?

This is a very serious matter and could have a decisive say in running a second referendum. Surely we should get a judge or even the police to investigate?

If you have any evidence it's your duty to hand this information over. At least give it to me if you are worried about the publicity. This could make you very famous indeed.

Unless you are lying?

Boring, find something else to be annoying with

 

[oldgroaner]

Your attitude is very disappointing for someone of your age.

Is there any danger of you posting on topic?
And you didn't answer the question
"how am I supposed to be trying to stop democracy working? "

 

[Fingers]

Boring, find something else to be annoying with

I'm sorry you find it boring but you make grave charges that are incorrect.

And you know they are incorrect and false.

You are lying again Gerald. It's becoming a habit. You invent falsehoods against other posters and tell lies about the leave campaign.

Despite extensive investigations no single person from leave has been convicted of anything you accuse them of.

Even the kid that was left to rot had his appeal upheld.

You are lying.

 

[oldgroaner]

I'm sorry you find it boring but you make grave charges that are incorrect.

And you know they are incorrect and false.

You are lying again Gerald. It's becoming a habit. You invent falsehoods against other posters and tell lies about the leave campaign.

Despite extensive investigations no single person from leave has been convicted of anything you accuse them of.

Even the kid that was left to rot had his appeal upheld.

You are lying.

I made no charges, the case was made by others, and I referred to them , get your facts right

This is what the court ruled
"Mr Justice Ouseley said he was refusing permission for a full hearing of the claim because of the long delay in bringing it forward and because of “the want of merit”.
The "Want of merit " is because being advisory only the referendum has no legal status and cannot therefore be annulled"
And the "long delay" is because the case should have been brought within 6 weeks.

And then you lapse back into insults.

You are lying again Gerald. It's becoming a habit. You invent falsehoods against other posters and tell lies about the leave campaign.

I do not lie nor indulge in falsehoods

Your behaviour is appalling even for a juvenile

And you haven't answered my question in response to this from you

"So why are you trying stop democracy working then?

The question is, how am I doing that?

And your answer is?

 

[Danidl]

During my years in education I discovered how to identify the less intelligent and les capable people who walk amongst us. Without exception, the people who constantly find it necessary to tell people how clever they are, or what they have achieved are the ones to exercise caution over. When you scratch beneath the surface, you will find very little of value.

Danny-boy is one of those people who are full of pi$$ and wind and are to be avoided by employers. They will spend their working day attempting to demonstrate how valuable they are via meetings and panels, but actually achieve FA. Eventually, they will bottom out in education. It’s all shop window with these people. Using unnecessarily complicated language and unnecessarily over complicating very simple principles to the extent they confuses themselves and get it wrong.

A truly clever person takes the complex and presents it in such a way that the reader thinks they already knew what they have just learned.

A clever person explains as succinctly as possible , bearing in mind the mental acuity of their target audience. A politician over simplifies . Occams Razor. .. read up about it.

 

[Woosh]

A truly clever person takes the complex and presents it in such a way that the reader thinks they already knew what they have just learned.

like Farage?

 

[oyster]

In Parliamentary democracy, yes.

In direct democracy of the people in our complex modern world, emphatically no.

Our Brexit experience to date illustrates only too well the validity of this view.
.

The HoC has often been at variance with the electorate. One example being capital punishment. Quite often, the HoC has very clearly been against while the electorate would (most likely) have voted for.

The difference with brexit is the referendum - not the clash of views.

Just why should a flawed referendum (and I think there are many reasons for considering it flawed) be taken as an absolute mandate? Nothing else is.

 

[oyster]

Seeing the Government Prepare for Brexit advert I go to the website.
What do I find as advice for me?
You do not need to take action at this time
Based on your responses, you do not need to take any action to prepare for the Brexit deadline of 31 October 2019.

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
What is the point of a campaign on the TV that has nothing to offer members of the public?
This is an absolute farce.

Precisely what I found.

I cannot believe that the campaign is anything other than pure propaganda.

We have already heard numerous companies, in the form of owners, managers, etc., interviewed answering with "we still don't know what to do". That is despite many of them following the guidance to try to find out, trying to take the actions required, and so on.

 

[oyster]

No you are correct, the underground source water to water heat pump, is more efficient. However,the additional engineering of groundworks and maybe sterilising a section of the lawn makes the Return on Investment decisions harder. Shrubs and trees will not grow well close to the grid of brine pipes, due to lowered soil temperature. Vertical bore 100 m holes are the best method ,but also the most expensive. Using a 200 watt air fan, over truck sized radiators is the most cost effective solution...which is why ASHPs are winning out.
Incidentally my air to water Heat pump makes less noise than my neighbours oil burner

How is water heating implemented with ASHP?

I assume we end up with hot water cylinders again.

Direct electric heating at the outlet might have been preferable, at least for hand washing. With a combi-based system, we seem to waste so much water running until some heated water comes through. Then, turn it off leaving lots of heated water in the pipe, usually becoming cold before next being required.

 

[Fingers]

The HoC has often been at variance with the electorate. One example being capital punishment. Quite often, the HoC has very clearly been against while the electorate would (most likely) have voted for.

The difference with brexit is the referendum - not the clash of views.

Just why should a flawed referendum (and I think there are many reasons for considering it flawed) be taken as an absolute mandate? Nothing else is.

The problem with a second referendum is will not solve anything. If leave wins remainers will still not accept it. If remain wins leavers will want another referendum.

It feels never ending now wait and see what happens if there is a second referendum.

The only way there can be a legit second referendum is if the circumstances are changed and the EU decide to reform. But that isn't going to happen.

If we leave we can always rejoin later. That's how it works in democracies.

 

[oyster]

The only way there can be a legit second referendum is if the circumstances are changed

The circumstances have changed. Dramatically. No-deal was not what was talked about in 2016.

 

[oyster]

If we leave we can always rejoin later.

Unlikely to be achievable on current terms, and without having to join the euro.

 

[oldgroaner]

The problem with a second referendum is will not solve anything. If leave wins remainers will still not accept it. If remain wins leavers will want another referendum.

It feels never ending now wait and see what happens if there is a second referendum.

The only way there can be a legit second referendum is if the circumstances are changed and the EU decide to reform. But that isn't going to happen.

If we leave we can always rejoin later. That's how it works in democracies.

Interesting post.
Brexit would certainly prove the point one way or the other, the problem is the cost, damage, disruption and how long it takes to either prove it was successful, or realize the error and correct it.
One thing is for certain the only surefire winners are the likes of Crispin Odey and other Hedge Fund vermin.
And even after all that, the division among the public will remain, because politicians have the means to mould the opinions by carefully targetting vulnerable individuals.
The referendum proved that to be true, the money invested in the science came up trumps. I'm sure Putin was delighted.
In an isolated little island we are easy prey to such people, who can make laws to stop there being any safeguards against abuse of human rights.
"A new dark age made more sinister and prolonged by the lights of perverted science"
To misquote Churchill

 

[Danidl]

How is water heating implemented with ASHP?

I assume we end up with hot water cylinders again.

Direct electric heating at the outlet might have been preferable, at least for hand washing. With a combi-based system, we seem to waste so much water running until some heated water comes through. Then, turn it off leaving lots of heated water in the pipe, usually becoming cold before next being required.

The domestic water is pressurised at the storage tank.
In our case, the water storage tank is a large 300 litre insulated tank containing two heating coils and an immersion heater element. The thermal solar is connected to the lower coil and the hotwater feed from the ASHP to the upper coil. The tank temperature is sent back to the ASHP controller. If the ASHP decides that the tank temperature is below 50 degrees,it goes into a less efficient COP high temperature output mode and delivers hot water at 60 into the heating coil. Otherwise it reverts to a 35 degree ,high efficiency mode, circulating into the Floor and radiator space heating.
There is no effective limit in the solar hot water heater, and temperature in excess of 100 degrees can be achieved.. at which stage its controller stops . So having a large tank of 90 degree water and a brilliant drying press is achievable. There is a thermostatic mixer on the hot feed from the tank, so we don't scald ourselves. This drives all the showers and bath effectively. Ironically the only place with poor hot water flow is the kitchen, and the tap must run for a few minutes.. Sometimes we just boil a kettle, rather than let the tap run.
The immersion heater is rarely if ever used...however we might turn it on in winter to ensure that Legionnaire Disease is prevented... This would be after multiple days of overcast skys meaning low solar heating.

 

[Fingers]

Unlikely to be achievable on current terms, and without having to join the euro.

It will be inevitable that if we want to stay in the EU we would have to join the Euro anyway. Might work out better anyway. One of the reasons I voted out was because we were neither properly in or out.

And nothing was on the referendum apart from remain or leave.

We weren't voting on a deal. We were voting in or out.

 

[oldgroaner]

The domestic water is pressurised at the storage tank.
In our case, the water storage tank is a large 300 litre insulated tank containing two heating coils and an immersion heater element. The thermal solar is connected to the lower coil and the hotwater feed from the ASHP to the upper coil. The tank temperature is sent back to the ASHP controller. If the ASHP decides that the tank temperature is below 50 degrees,it goes into a less efficient COP high temperature output mode and delivers hot water at 60 into the heating coil. Otherwise it reverts to a 35 degree ,high efficiency mode, circulating into the Floor and radiator space heating.
There is no effective limit in the solar hot water heater, and temperature in excess of 100 degrees can be achieved.. at which stage its controller stops . So having a large tank of 90 degree water and a brilliant drying press is achievable. There is a thermostatic mixer on the hot feed from the tank, so we don't scald ourselves. This drives all the showers and bath effectively. Ironically the only place with poor hot water flow is the kitchen, and the tap must run for a few minutes.. Sometimes we just boil a kettle, rather than let the tap run.
The immersion heater is rarely if ever used...however we might turn it on in winter to ensure that Legionnaire Disease is prevented... This would be after multiple days of overcast skys meaning low solar heating.

Surely a lower limit stat set to 60c would control the immersion heater for you?

 

[oldgroaner]

It will be inevitable that if we want to stay in the EU we would have to join the Euro anyway. Might work out better anyway. One of the reasons I voted out was because we were neither properly in or out.

And nothing was on the referendum apart from remain or leave.

We weren't voting on a deal. We were voting in or out.

Not so simple as that, was it?
The vote was during campaigns of for and anti propaganda
On the basis of persuasive arguments against a background of ignorance on the part of all concerned including the politicians, and an instinct for voters to register protest at austerity where the EU had habitually been blamed as the source of all ills, by the Group campaigning for remain, on the principle that if the Government wanted to remain, the voters didn't to spite them.

And neither side had made plans as to what to do afterwards, and that is still true to this day.
Now we have Boris promising the Earth from a "Magic money tree"

 

[jonathan.agnew]

That point about permission is valid and profound.

Indeed but I fear your point (and the irony)is wasted on a motor mouth idiot like fingers