Brexit, for once some facts.

[Woosh]

And we had opted out of ever closer union,.

that is of little importance, if you don't like to see a US of E, you would want out even if you are not yet in it.

 

[50Hertz]

None at all, and in any case we would be better off being part of an EU army than being possibly opposed by it!
I cannot see any advantage of leaving at all, what I can offer is one or two reasons to remain

1. Membership of the world’s largest trading bloc with over 500 million consumers, representing 23% of global GDP
2. The UK has greater global influence as a member of the EU
3. The EU provides a counterweight to the global power of the US, Russia and China
4. With Trump in the White House the UK’s strongest natural allies are France, Germany and our other West European neighbours
5. Tariff-free trade within the EU
6. The abolition of non-tariff barriers (quotas, subsidies, administrative rules etc.) among members
7. Participation in free trade agreements with Japan and Canada as an EU member
8. The EU accounts for 44% of all UK exports of goods and services
9. The EU accounts for 53% of all UK imports of goods and services
10. Cheaper food and alcohol imports from continental Europe
11. As a member of the EU the UK maintains a say in the shaping of the rules governing its trade with its European partners
12. 3.1 million jobs in the UK are directly linked to exports to the EU
13. Free movement of labour has helped UK firms plug skills gaps (translators, doctors, plumbers)
14. Free movement of labour has helped address shortages of unskilled workers (fruit picking, catering)
15. The Single Market has brought the best continental footballers to the Premier League
16. The EU accounts for 47% of the UK’s stock of inward Foreign Direct Investment (FDI), worth over $1.2 trillion
17. Access to the EU Single Market has helped attract investment into the UK from outside the EU
18. No paperwork or customs for UK exports throughout the single market
19. Price transparency and removal of commissions on currency transactions across the Eurozone
20. FDI into the UK has effectively doubled since the creation of the EU Single Market
21. The UK’s net contribution to the EU budget is around €7.3bn, or 0.4% of GDP (less than an eighth of the UK’s defence spending)
22. No time consuming border checks for travellers (apart from in the UK)
23. The City of London, as a global financial hub, has acted as a bridge between foreign business and the EU
24. British banks and insurance companies have been able to operate freely across the EU
25. Cornwall receives up to £750 million per year from the EU Social Fund (ESF)
26. Structural funding for areas of the UK hit by industrial decline (South Wales, Yorkshire)
27. Support for rural areas under the European Agricultural Fund for Regional Development (EAFRD)
28. EU funding for infrastructure projects in the UK including £122 million for the “Midlands engine” project
29. Financial support from the EU for over 3,000 small and medium enterprises (SMEs) in the UK
30. EU funding for the British film industry
31. EU funding for British theatre, music and dance
32. EU funding for British sport, including football apprenticeships, tennis and rugby league
33. Glasgow (1990) and Liverpool (2008) benefitted from being European capitals of culture, stimulating their local economies
34. EU competition laws protect consumers by combatting monopolistic business practices
35. Strict controls on the operations of Multinational Corporations (MNCs) in the EU
36. Human Rights protected under the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights
37. The death penalty can never be reintroduced as it is incompatible with EU membership
38. Minority languages such as Welsh and Irish are recognized and protected under EU law
39. The right to reside in any EU member state
40. The freedom to work in 28 countries without visa and immigration restrictions
41. The mutual recognition of professional qualifications has facilitated the free movement of engineers, teachers and doctors across the EU
42. The mutual recognition of educational diplomas
43. The Common European Framework of Reference for Languages (CEFR) has standardized assessment of language proficiency across the EU
44. The freedom to study in 28 countries (many EU universities teach courses in English and charge lower fees than in the UK)
45. The Erasmus programme of university exchanges (benefitting 16000 UK students a year)
46. The freedom to set up a business in 28 countries
47. The ability to retire in any member state
48. Pension transferability
49. The right to vote in local and European Parliamentary elections if resident in any member state
50. EU laws making it easier for British people to buy property on the continent
51. The right to receive emergency healthcare in any member state (EHIC card)
52. Consular protection from any EU embassy outside the EU
53. The EU has played a leading role in combatting global warming (Paris 2015 climate change conference)
54. Common EU greenhouse gas emissions targets (19% reduction from 1990 to 2015)
55. Improvements in air quality (significant reductions in sulphur dioxide and nitrogen oxides) as a result of EU legislation
56. Reductions in sewage emissions
57. Improvements in the quality of beaches and bathing water
58. EU standards on the quality of drinking water
59. Restrictions on landfill dumping
60. EU targets for recycling
61. Common EU regulations on the transportation and disposal of toxic waste
62. The implementation of EU policies to reduce noise pollution in urban areas
63. EU policies have stimulated offshore wind farms
64. Strict safety standards for cars, buses and trucks
65. Protection of endangered species and habitats (EU Natura 2000 network)
66. Strict ban on animal testing in the cosmetics industry
67. Membership of the European Medicines Agency (EMA) which monitors the quality and safety of medicines (until recently located in London)
68. 13% of EU budget earmarked for scientific research and innovation
69. The UK receives £730 million a year in EU funding for research
70. EU funding for UK universities
71. Cooperation in the peaceful use of nuclear energy as a member of Euratom
72. Minimum paid annual leave and time off work (Working Time Directive)
73. Equal pay between men and women enshrined in European law since 1957
74. The right to work no more than 48 hours a week without paid overtime
75. Minimum guaranteed maternity leave of 14 weeks for pregnant women
76. Rights to a minimum 18 weeks of parental leave after child birth
77. EU anti-discrimination laws governing age, religion and sexual orientation
78. EU rules governing health and safety at work
79. The rights to collective bargaining and trade union membership are enshrined in EU employment law
80. The UK enjoys an opt out from the single currency and maintains full control of its borders as a non-member of the Schengen area
81. Since 1985 the UK has received a budget rebate equivalent to 66% of its net contribution to the EU budget
82. EU cross-country coordination offers greater protection from terrorists, pedophiles, people traffickers and cyber-crime
83. The European common arrest warrant
84. Europe-wide patent and copyright protection
85. EU consumer protection laws concerning transparency and product guarantees of quality and safety
86. Improved food labeling
87. A ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives
88. Cheaper air travel due to EU competition laws
89. Common EU air passenger rights
90. Deregulation of the European energy market has increased consumer choice and lowered prices
91. Mutual recognition of the common European driving license
92. The introduction of the European pet passport
93. The abolition of mobile telephone roaming charges
94. The EU acts as a guarantor of the Irish Good Friday Agreement
95. A frictionless Irish border
96. The EU acts as a guarantor of the special status of Gibraltar
97. The EU helped support and maintain democracy in Spain, Portugal and Greece from the 1970s and these countries have become major destinations for British tourists
98. EU membership has helped facilitate intercultural dialogue

But you would see those as lies, just forecast wouldn't you?
So how about answering my question, if we leave the EU how will it stop them having an army if they want to, and why should you care anyway? we already are part of NATO
So is that really all you expect to gain from Brexit?

Difficult to answer, isn't it?
Because the answer is................
Nothing you can really expect that is positively a benefit.

Did you construct that list of 98 reasons or have you cut it from another article and pasted it into this thread?

 

[daveboy]

None at all, and in any case we would be better off being part of an EU army than being possibly opposed by it!
I cannot see any advantage of leaving at all, what I can offer is one or two reasons to remain

1. Membership of the world’s largest trading bloc with over 500 million consumers, representing 23% of global GDP
2. The UK has greater global influence as a member of the EU
3. The EU provides a counterweight to the global power of the US, Russia and China
4. With Trump in the White House the UK’s strongest natural allies are France, Germany and our other West European neighbours
5. Tariff-free trade within the EU
6. The abolition of non-tariff barriers (quotas, subsidies, administrative rules etc.) among members
7. Participation in free trade agreements with Japan and Canada as an EU member
8. The EU accounts for 44% of all UK exports of goods and services
9. The EU accounts for 53% of all UK imports of goods and services
10. Cheaper food and alcohol imports from continental Europe
11. As a member of the EU the UK maintains a say in the shaping of the rules governing its trade with its European partners
12. 3.1 million jobs in the UK are directly linked to exports to the EU
13. Free movement of labour has helped UK firms plug skills gaps (translators, doctors, plumbers)
14. Free movement of labour has helped address shortages of unskilled workers (fruit picking, catering)
15. The Single Market has brought the best continental footballers to the Premier League
16. The EU accounts for 47% of the UK’s stock of inward Foreign Direct Investment (FDI), worth over $1.2 trillion
17. Access to the EU Single Market has helped attract investment into the UK from outside the EU
18. No paperwork or customs for UK exports throughout the single market
19. Price transparency and removal of commissions on currency transactions across the Eurozone
20. FDI into the UK has effectively doubled since the creation of the EU Single Market
21. The UK’s net contribution to the EU budget is around €7.3bn, or 0.4% of GDP (less than an eighth of the UK’s defence spending)
22. No time consuming border checks for travellers (apart from in the UK)
23. The City of London, as a global financial hub, has acted as a bridge between foreign business and the EU
24. British banks and insurance companies have been able to operate freely across the EU
25. Cornwall receives up to £750 million per year from the EU Social Fund (ESF)
26. Structural funding for areas of the UK hit by industrial decline (South Wales, Yorkshire)
27. Support for rural areas under the European Agricultural Fund for Regional Development (EAFRD)
28. EU funding for infrastructure projects in the UK including £122 million for the “Midlands engine” project
29. Financial support from the EU for over 3,000 small and medium enterprises (SMEs) in the UK
30. EU funding for the British film industry
31. EU funding for British theatre, music and dance
32. EU funding for British sport, including football apprenticeships, tennis and rugby league
33. Glasgow (1990) and Liverpool (2008) benefitted from being European capitals of culture, stimulating their local economies
34. EU competition laws protect consumers by combatting monopolistic business practices
35. Strict controls on the operations of Multinational Corporations (MNCs) in the EU
36. Human Rights protected under the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights
37. The death penalty can never be reintroduced as it is incompatible with EU membership
38. Minority languages such as Welsh and Irish are recognized and protected under EU law
39. The right to reside in any EU member state
40. The freedom to work in 28 countries without visa and immigration restrictions
41. The mutual recognition of professional qualifications has facilitated the free movement of engineers, teachers and doctors across the EU
42. The mutual recognition of educational diplomas
43. The Common European Framework of Reference for Languages (CEFR) has standardized assessment of language proficiency across the EU
44. The freedom to study in 28 countries (many EU universities teach courses in English and charge lower fees than in the UK)
45. The Erasmus programme of university exchanges (benefitting 16000 UK students a year)
46. The freedom to set up a business in 28 countries
47. The ability to retire in any member state
48. Pension transferability
49. The right to vote in local and European Parliamentary elections if resident in any member state
50. EU laws making it easier for British people to buy property on the continent
51. The right to receive emergency healthcare in any member state (EHIC card)
52. Consular protection from any EU embassy outside the EU
53. The EU has played a leading role in combatting global warming (Paris 2015 climate change conference)
54. Common EU greenhouse gas emissions targets (19% reduction from 1990 to 2015)
55. Improvements in air quality (significant reductions in sulphur dioxide and nitrogen oxides) as a result of EU legislation
56. Reductions in sewage emissions
57. Improvements in the quality of beaches and bathing water
58. EU standards on the quality of drinking water
59. Restrictions on landfill dumping
60. EU targets for recycling
61. Common EU regulations on the transportation and disposal of toxic waste
62. The implementation of EU policies to reduce noise pollution in urban areas
63. EU policies have stimulated offshore wind farms
64. Strict safety standards for cars, buses and trucks
65. Protection of endangered species and habitats (EU Natura 2000 network)
66. Strict ban on animal testing in the cosmetics industry
67. Membership of the European Medicines Agency (EMA) which monitors the quality and safety of medicines (until recently located in London)
68. 13% of EU budget earmarked for scientific research and innovation
69. The UK receives £730 million a year in EU funding for research
70. EU funding for UK universities
71. Cooperation in the peaceful use of nuclear energy as a member of Euratom
72. Minimum paid annual leave and time off work (Working Time Directive)
73. Equal pay between men and women enshrined in European law since 1957
74. The right to work no more than 48 hours a week without paid overtime
75. Minimum guaranteed maternity leave of 14 weeks for pregnant women
76. Rights to a minimum 18 weeks of parental leave after child birth
77. EU anti-discrimination laws governing age, religion and sexual orientation
78. EU rules governing health and safety at work
79. The rights to collective bargaining and trade union membership are enshrined in EU employment law
80. The UK enjoys an opt out from the single currency and maintains full control of its borders as a non-member of the Schengen area
81. Since 1985 the UK has received a budget rebate equivalent to 66% of its net contribution to the EU budget
82. EU cross-country coordination offers greater protection from terrorists, pedophiles, people traffickers and cyber-crime
83. The European common arrest warrant
84. Europe-wide patent and copyright protection
85. EU consumer protection laws concerning transparency and product guarantees of quality and safety
86. Improved food labeling
87. A ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives
88. Cheaper air travel due to EU competition laws
89. Common EU air passenger rights
90. Deregulation of the European energy market has increased consumer choice and lowered prices
91. Mutual recognition of the common European driving license
92. The introduction of the European pet passport
93. The abolition of mobile telephone roaming charges
94. The EU acts as a guarantor of the Irish Good Friday Agreement
95. A frictionless Irish border
96. The EU acts as a guarantor of the special status of Gibraltar
97. The EU helped support and maintain democracy in Spain, Portugal and Greece from the 1970s and these countries have become major destinations for British tourists
98. EU membership has helped facilitate intercultural dialogue

But you would see those as lies, just forecast wouldn't you?
So how about answering my question, if we leave the EU how will it stop them having an army if they want to, and why should you care anyway? we already are part of NATO
So is that really all you expect to gain from Brexit?

Difficult to answer, isn't it?
Because the answer is................
Nothing you can really expect that is positively a benefit.

I will let Vince answer ...

 

[oldgroaner]

Did you construct that list of 98 reasons or have you cut it from another article and pasted it into this thread?

Guilty as charged you naughty man you, it's another cut and paste of course!
There's no shortage of them listing reasons to stay
But they are rare as the proverbial "Rocking Horse Muck" that list reasons to leave that even a half wit would fall for, and have less items than the fingers of a man with no arms

 

[oldgroaner]

I will let Vince answer ...

You do realise that not a single one of those points he made are true? and the best he can come up with is they are all signs of hope?
Let's take subsidies
https://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/accessing-markets/trade-defence/actions-against-imports-into-the-eu/anti-subsidy/

And haven't the Government been subsidising industries?
heguardian.com/environment/2019/jan/23/uk-has-biggest-fossil-fuel-subsidies-in-the-eu-finds-commission


How about local councils having to procure through the EU?
"
Councils must engage local small businesses through procurement
Local government spends £62bn a year procuring services, but this vital area is often overlooked as a dry academic exercise

Do you want me to demolish all his other points too?

Clearly he doesn't know what he is talking about does he?

 

[50Hertz]

I didn’t think that Labour could possibly become a less attractive proposition than the one which they currently present. It’s was a tough challenge, but they have managed to find a way. A pact with the Scottish Idiot Dwarf. Imagine that.

 

[50Hertz]

Guilty as charged you naughty man you, it's another cut and paste of course!
There's no shortage of them listing reasons to stay
But they are rare as the proverbial "Rocking Horse Muck" that list reasons to leave that even a half wit would fall for, and have less items than the fingers of a man with no arms

I agree with most of that, but the rate at which you post makes it unlikely that you have considered each of the 98 points in any detail and formed a balanced opinion. Was just a case of, that’s anti-Brexit so it will do?

 

[Woosh]

Peston:

"Boris Johnson's no-ifs-or-buts, do-or-die Brexit may be a locomotive on which the brakes have been removed.”

MPs did in theory possess the power to block a no deal exit.
in practice, this was unlikely as the Remain numbers in the Commons were still divided among party political lines.

 

[oldgroaner]

I agree with most of that, but the rate at which you post makes it unlikely that you have considered each of the 98 points in any detail and formed a balanced opinion. Was just a case of, that’s anti-Brexit so it will do?

These points are all from way back, and yes I have looked at them all and a lot more besides.

 

[50Hertz]

These points are all from way back, and yes I have looked at them all and a lot more besides.

I’m very pleased to hear that. I shouldn’t have doubted you.

 

[Danidl]

The EU said they didn't want an Army but you won't see that as a lie, just a forecast. Can you see any advantage of leaving ?

No. Some countries in the EU want to push for an EU Army, some don't. The UK by staying in would have strengthened the case for not having one. The army is an aspiration,not a forecast and not fake news ,not a lie

 

[Danidl]

Did you construct that list of 98 reasons or have you cut it from another article and pasted it into this thread?

Does that matter?. What matters is the objective truth in those 98 statements, . If you have counter arguments voice them!.

 

[Fingers]

Does that matter?. What matters is the objective truth in those 98 statements, . If you have counter arguments voice them!.

I think I read 3 before doing the usual with Gerald's posts but all 3 were possible without being in the EU.

Go figure.

 

[wheeler]

I didn’t think that Labour could possibly become a less attractive proposition than the one which they currently present. It’s was a tough challenge, but they have managed to find a way. A pact with the Scottish Idiot Dwarf. Imagine that.

I see Tillson's got a wee semi on today.

 

[oldgroaner]

I think I read 3 before doing the usual with Gerald's posts but all 3 were possible without being in the EU.

Go figure.

Attention span ran out, did it? Go figure what?

You managed to be wrong on all three didn't you?

1. Membership of the world’s largest trading bloc with over 500 million consumers, representing 23% of global GDP
2. The UK has greater global influence as a member of the EU
3. The EU provides a counterweight to the global power of the US, Russia and China

Let's face it you didn't even read them, did you?

 

[Fingers]

I see Tillson's got a wee semi on today.

You should know.

It's your chosen subject.

 

[flecc]

I agree with most of that, but the rate at which you post makes it unlikely that you have considered each of the 98 points in any detail and formed a balanced opinion. Was just a case of, that’s anti-Brexit so it will do?

I've carefully read and considered every one of them and find nothing to disagree with.

As OG says, it's near to impossible to construct a sensible list for leaving. Vince Cable's mostly false reasons accompanied by him regularly interjecting "possibly" is about as far as that gets.
.

 

[Fingers]

I see Tillson's got a wee semi on today.

 

[Woosh]

this may be the only way forward for remainers when October comes: revoke A50, if Bojo refuses to step down after losing vote of confidence.

This idea may gain traction in the next few weeks.

The only way to stop the catastrophe of a no-deal Brexit? Revoke article 50 | Jonathan Lis

The time for tinkering around the edges is over – MPs should vote for revocation in the autumn, followed by a referendum, says Jonathan Lis, deputy director of the thinktank British Influence

www.theguardian.com

 

[oldgroaner]

this may be the only way forward for remainers when October comes: revoke A50, if Bojo refuses to step down after losing vote of confidence.

This idea may gain traction in the next few weeks.

The only way to stop the catastrophe of a no-deal Brexit? Revoke article 50 | Jonathan Lis

The time for tinkering around the edges is over – MPs should vote for revocation in the autumn, followed by a referendum, says Jonathan Lis, deputy director of the thinktank British Influence

www.theguardian.com

It is the only rational course of action, this Brexit farce is becoming dangerous