Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
- Start date
i suspect we all have our feelings about the referendum - and then the rational parts of ourselves that really know what will happen in the real world: one way or another - feelings aside - i suspect very little will change - either we'll stay in or, having voted out, we will also stay in (norway style with less say and rights, but teh same obligations and boundaries viz immigration etc). Boris may be pretending much will change to populist voters as part of riding the brexit hobby horse half to death to get to number ten, but i suspect everyone else knows nothing will really change, regardles of the outcome.
the differences between a Brexiter like Gisela Stuart and Boris Johnson should be a warning to what kind of government after Brexit we are going to get. Stuart's argument is sound, Johnson's not. Under PM Johnson, immigrants are needed only when and where he's needing them. Needless to say that I much prefer PM Stuart. She's born German BTW.
I can agree that Gisela Stuart came across very well and I could genuinely relate to her and agree with her, she is also on the Brexit side
Regarding Borris, I can agree you either like or dislike his style, but listen to his words instead of distorting them
Regarding public services, firstly you are just spouting usual party politics from a clearly left wing bias, and are also completely ignoring the fact that Borris has stated many times he wishes to better fund the services through Brexit
Get back to the issues
This is not about racism and hating immagrents,
It is about controlling uncontrolled imagration which impacts services
It is not strangely enough about the economy, because both parties are working to improve it just different tactics
It is about self governance
It is about not wanting to be part of an Europe superstate that has adequately demonstrated it cannot assure the prosperity of its citizens, is unflexible in its policy and despises the voting classes, which it judges just hurdles to be overcome in its onward March
A vote for Brexit I believe will call that to a halt and force rationale and pan European discourse on the future direction and form that the bureaucrats clearly do not want to do
So if that is not UK leading Europe, I don't know what is
Last edited:
i suspect you havent been living in london lately? have a godo look atthis unbiased reprot of boris' track record
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-36170239
to me that paints a rosy picture of an opportunistic politician who does not really care
I love optimism, but not when it is simply foolishness, the Tory agenda is simply about profit and control of a subservient public, and brexit will simply give them unbridled power, with nothing but loss to the public who have nothing to gain from it, and it's disguise as being patriotic is no more than a sham, as are the nonsense claims of us being prosperous on our own, with nothing but empty promises to back that up.
Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk
Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk
Still you are mixing up the issues.
Ambition is not a sin but the referendum is not about Borris no matter how hard the remainders try to make it so.
By the way you are right haven't be following London news, it's not the only part of the U.K. You know
The public would not be fooled by Borris anyway, and don't tell me that 50% of the population are simply being lead along meakly by Boris's charisma
And what are you afraid of anyway, if Boris was elected PM, it would be because the party believe him to be the man for the job, ie democracy in action, just like Jeremy is now leader of the protest party, but thankfully will never lead the country
It's no wonder that everyone gets confused about the referendum when so many other irrelevant and misdirecting issues are thrown on the fire by the perennial protesters
The last thing anyone should do is listen to the words Boris Johnson utters. He is a proven persistent liar and always
has been. When he was very capably interviewed on BBC 2 long ago everyone watching was left in absolutely no doubt of what an untrustworthy, deceitful and self-seeking person he is. There seems to be no limit to how low he will stoop in the service of himself.
Our experiences of him as the London mayor have underlined that.
Please don't attempt to do as others have and defend by saying all politicians are like that. Johnson has been lifelong a wholly different order, beneath contempt.
.
I will trust to your superior knowledge, but it's still irrelevant. He is not the only person and the only arguments for Brexit.
That's the problem here, in football terms you lot keep playing the man, instead of the ball
+1
argumentum ad hominem - a logical fallacy in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.
No, not playing the man, just warning against listening to a proven very untrustworthy person. There are very many sincere, honest and capable people arguing for Brexit, so there's no need to take Johnson's promises into account.
All that matters are the known facts on each side, the advantages on each side and the possible risks on each side. From those each voter can vote for the balance they prefer.
.
No, my post was not arguing against Brexit, I've done that previously, concentrating on the subject. See this reply.
.
And that's the danger, something he's cleverly exploited to con his way though life.
.
I really think we need to recognise rhetoric for what it is - a tool for persuasion.
Words provide no sound basis for respect, belief or allegiance.
They do however sway the easily led.
The most dangerous politician is the one you agree with, and yet the word of a politician is the most devalued currency I know of.
So many here are so wonderfully certain of their views --
but certainty is just a feeling.
Volvo.
Words provide no sound basis for respect, belief or allegiance.
They do however sway the easily led.
The most dangerous politician is the one you agree with, and yet the word of a politician is the most devalued currency I know of.
So many here are so wonderfully certain of their views --
but certainty is just a feeling.
Volvo.
In keeping with the thread title, about facts, here's a source of good accurate information about the referendum issues.
The BBC's respected "More or Less" Radio 4 series is dedicated to closely examining statistical claims and often debunks false figures propagated.
Accordingly this week a series of five short programs has examined the most common referendum claims, dissecting the figures in order to get at the truth. As ever, they don't take sides so the truth falls both ways. Each link is to a program on one issue, lasting about 11 minutes:
More or Less, The referendum by numbers:
The Cost of EU membership
Immigration
Law
Regulation
Trade
.
The BBC's respected "More or Less" Radio 4 series is dedicated to closely examining statistical claims and often debunks false figures propagated.
Accordingly this week a series of five short programs has examined the most common referendum claims, dissecting the figures in order to get at the truth. As ever, they don't take sides so the truth falls both ways. Each link is to a program on one issue, lasting about 11 minutes:
More or Less, The referendum by numbers:
The Cost of EU membership
Immigration
Law
Regulation
Trade
.
There is one problem with this, though it is laudable in intent: technically it will establish a precedent that a substitute can replace an elected MP on the death of the incumbent.
I'm not saying it's wrong, just that there are implications attached to such a decision, and believe that the proper reactions would be to delay the by election until an agreed mourning period had elapsed.
Thoughts, anyone?
Good try Flec, but I'll give it about 10 mins before someone cries, propaganda, lies. Ha!