Brexit, for once some facts.

[tillson]

I am disappointed at his leaping to a conclusion as there is insufficient cause and effect to be so certain, but what words can I use to explain your reaction?
"I wondered if anyone could sink low enough to suggest that the poor woman’s cold blooded murder was in some way linked with those who support the EU Exit campaign."

Actually the Police did that with the details they gave of the attacker, did they not?
And as to the assertion
"What is particularly revolting is the eagerness with which you capitalise on the death of this poor woman and convert it into a form of currency and then use it to try and buy the silence of those who have a different point of view to yourself."
It certainly didn't work in your case did it? and you went ahead and did the very thing you complained about.

What are you talking about you idiot? I have made no political points either way.

 

[oldgroaner]

What are you talking about you idiot? I have made no political points either way.

What are you talking about you idiot? I have made no political points either way.

Same old Tillson , but what can one expect?
I didn't accuse you of making political points, did I?
Simply of pouring more petrol onto a fire.
Blinkers fitting comfortably?
Never mind, have a nice day.

 

[trex]

the killing of Jo Cox made me think that now is not the time for Brexit.
A second referendum must be called under a left wing government.

 

[oldtom]

I’m sorry Tom but what you have written is grotesque. When I first heard the terrible news on the radio and I after I had digested what had happened, my thoughts turned to the EU referendum. I wondered if anyone could sink low enough to suggest that the poor woman’s cold blooded murder was in some way linked with those who support the EU Exit campaign. I dismissed this notion on the basis that no one anywhere could be so insensitive, callous or stupid to suggest such a thing. It appears that I was wrong.

From what I have seen and heard on the news, it is likely that the killer will be found to have far right ideals and leanings, possible be suffering from a mental illness too. However, nothing is certain and the investigation will be in it’s very early stages and could progress in an unexpected direction. Your attempts to associate this terrible event with Nigel Farage, Ian Duncan Smith and Boris Johnson are nothing short of evil. What is particularly revolting is the eagerness with which you capitalise on the death of this poor woman and convert it into a form of currency and then use it to try and buy the silence of those who have a different point of view to yourself.

What you have written, is nasty, spiteful, malice fuelled nonsense and you should feel a sense of deep shame for posting it.

Clearly, Tillson, you are in denial about the threat posed by the extremist, far-right political groupings. It's not as if I haven't drawn attention to it before!

Mair may be simply a one-off lunatic but his passion was fired by the rhetoric of evil spread by meglomaniacs such as Farage and Johnson.

The lessons from history still haven't been learned by some in the UK but you need to be clear; Jo Cox didn't die at the hands of muslim terrorists, benefit-seeking immigrants or pro-European democrats. She died because she stood for everything that is decent which doesn't fit with the agenda of fascists and racists, supported by low-life thugs and nutters who are always ready to answer the call of evil-intentioned monsters like Farage & Co.

RIP Jo Cox.

Tom

 

[oldtom]

I am disappointed at his leaping to a conclusion as there is insufficient cause and effect to be so certain, but what words can I use to explain your reaction?
"I wondered if anyone could sink low enough to suggest that the poor woman’s cold blooded murder was in some way linked with those who support the EU Exit campaign."

Actually the Police did that with the details they gave of the attacker, did they not?
And as to the assertion
"What is particularly revolting is the eagerness with which you capitalise on the death of this poor woman and convert it into a form of currency and then use it to try and buy the silence of those who have a different point of view to yourself."
It certainly didn't work in your case did it? and you went ahead and did the very thing you complained about.
We have to hope that this tragic incident is only an isolated one, don't we? and overreaction to it is to be avoided like the plague.

Oldgroaner, I'm not usually one for jumping to conclusions as I know it's possible to simply make two and two add up to five sometimes.

On this occasion, I take the view that if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it almost certainly is a duck! Tommy Mair didn't scream any 'Remain' taglines or slogans while in the act of murdering a decent woman - he made it patently clear that his actions were in support of the 'Brexit' campaign.

I do understand your point though and I'm sure your view of the moronic 'Britain First' gang, posing as a legitimate political party, is the same as mine. People need to speak out against evil wherever it occurs - those who don't or are in denial are not part of the solution for Britain's difficulties; they are part of the problem.

Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

Oldgroaner, I'm not usually one for jumping to conclusions as I know it's possible to simply make two and two add up to five sometimes.

On this occasion, I take the view that if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it almost certainly is a duck! Tommy Mair didn't scream any 'Remain' taglines or slogans while in the act of murdering a decent woman - he made it patently clear that his actions were in support of the 'Brexit' campaign.

I do understand your point though and I'm sure your view of the moronic 'Britain First' gang, posing as a legitimate political party, is the same as mine. People need to speak out against evil wherever it occurs - those who don't or are in denial are not part of the solution for Britain's difficulties; they are part of the problem.

Tom

I agree, but take the view that reacting too strongly either way only give these monsters encouragement and furthers their cause, hence my reaction to both your and Tillson's comments in response to them.

This is a time for taking great care not to inflame the situation even further.

 

[derf]

RIP Jo Cox MP

Sadly, my worst fears about what happens when fascists like Farage, IDS, Gove and Johnson gain some followers through being given the oxygen of favourable publicity from their friends in the media, have all come true today. When these monsters are allowed to preach their poisonous message, all the other extreme right fanatics, racists and psychopaths gain credence and believe they have justification or indeed, a duty, to flex their muscles or worse.

The rise of the far right has been evident for some time and while some may regard today's murder of Jo Cox MP as a one-off act by a deranged madman, I fear that may be to underplay the potential of what is going on. Intelligent people will have seen the signs long ago that a grass-roots fascist movement was beginning to emerge in the UK and in the traditional fascist manner, they have been spreading their message of hatred, racism, bigotry and intolerance, while attempting to disguise their real agenda through the use of expressions such as, 'patriotic duty/sovereignty' and 'securing our borders' and the like, all diversions that appeal to the thickos and thugs.

Fascism never changes; those with sufficient knowledge, (or experience!) of history and geography will be well aware of the similarities between the rhetoric of the 'Brexit' spokespersons and that of the 1930s Nazi party leaders in Germany. If not checked, the fascists very quickly seek to gain power and make no mistake, the only power they are interested in is of the absolute variety. They rise to power by creating fear, identifying an enemy that everyone will need to also hate or risk being regarded as unpatriotic, perhaps even an enemy of the state. I won't go on but these are dangerous times as Jo Cox discovered today yet people are prepared to vote in the manner desired by the fascist movement and that involves a journey into the unknown, led by a group of deranged, bought politicians, bankrolled by a collection of fund managers.

The words of Jo Cox's widowed husband are worth listening to:
View attachment 14404

Tom

i agree, brexit is part of a racist far right swing across europe, like marine le pen in france or petry in germany. It's a terrible thing that happened, and naturally one wishes it didnt - but perhaps it opens the eyes of those who arent so self obvsessed that they cant see and influences teh referendum

 

[tillson]

the killing of Jo Cox made me think that now is not the time for Brexit.
A second referendum must be called under a left wing government.

Absolutely not. We can never let murderous lunatics with a perverse political agenda disrupt the democratic process.

The referendum must go ahead with greater momentum and this murder used as a reminder of what spiteful and malicious campaigning by both sides can eventually result in.

 

[trex]

I hate to see Brexiters tarnished by hard right flag waving people given TV air time.

 

[derf]

I hate to see Brexiters tarnished by hard right flag waving people given TV air time.

one answer is that that is exactly what is very likely to happen, not just now, but also in the lead up to the referendum. rightly or wrongly, i think it a good thing - i beleiev most voters are essentially decent, and in my view what's underneath the brexit tarnish is pretty bloody ugly.

 

[tillson]

Clearly, Tillson, you are in denial about the threat posed by the extremist, far-right political groupings. It's not as if I haven't drawn attention to it before!

Mair may be simply a one-off lunatic but his passion was fired by the rhetoric of evil spread by meglomaniacs such as Farage and Johnson.

The lessons from history still haven't been learned by some in the UK but you need to be clear; Jo Cox didn't die at the hands of muslim terrorists, benefit-seeking immigrants or pro-European democrats. She died because she stood for everything that is decent which doesn't fit with the agenda of fascists and racists, supported by low-life thugs and nutters who are always ready to answer the call of evil-intentioned monsters like Farage & Co.

RIP Jo Cox.

Tom

Tom, you say, "Mair may be simply a one-off lunatic but his passion was fired by the rhetoric of evil spread by meglomaniacs such as Farage and Johnson."

What has either of these two people actually said that has directly caused this murder?

Also, how did the murderous b@stard make it clear that his actions were in support of the BREXIT campaign? I've only heard the radio 4 news at 7:00 am this morning, so unless I missed something.......

 

[trex]

The EU (and by extension, globalization) do not suit everyone but I do want a fair fight, without the patriot card.

Mair may want a lot more than just brexit

 

[oldgroaner]

The EU (and by extension, globalization) do not suit everyone but I do want a fair fight, without the patriot card.

Mair may want a lot more than just brexit

Unless of course they are both putting their hands up as they want to be excused and use the toilet?
Somehow I think NOT.
I wonder just what they are swearing allegiance to on the bible over the flag?

 

[oldtom]

Absolutely not. We can never let murderous lunatics with a perverse political agenda disrupt the democratic process.

The referendum must go ahead with greater momentum and this murder used as a reminder of what spiteful and malicious campaigning by both sides can eventually result in.

'Both sides'....! Tillson, has it escaped you that the UK is actually already in the EU and the main government campaign has been all about persuading the electorate that we should remain? Pretty simple, inoffensive stuff, all in all.

Only one side has been involved in 'spiteful and malicious' campaigning and that is the 'Brexit' camp. Their rhetoric has all been about demonising foreign people, maligning genuine refugees and demonstrating every trait of racism imaginable.

The 'Remain' message is about decency, fairness, democracy and peace. It's about an enlarged, encompassing EU with all member states living in harmony. That doesn't happen overnight.

The 'Brexit' agenda is odious, racist, evil-intentioned and divisive with every speech punctuated by huge lies and ridiculous arithmetic.

Tom

 

[derf]

Unless of course they are both putting their hands up as they want to be excused and use the toilet?
Somehow I think NOT.

exactly what i thought, and the two holding the flag have the kind of fixed, obsessed looks one has when thinking, hard, about going to the toilet. so that would leave a dilemma as to who will hold the flag?

 

[oldtom]

Tom, you say, "Mair may be simply a one-off lunatic but his passion was fired by the rhetoric of evil spread by meglomaniacs such as Farage and Johnson."

What has either of these two people actually said that has directly caused this murder?

Also, how did the murderous b@stard make it clear that his actions were in support of the BREXIT campaign? I've only heard the radio 4 news at 7:00 am this morning, so unless I missed something.......

Tillson, you make two points.

1) Every word that comes out of the mouths of the 'Leave' campaign leaders - meglomaniacs to a man.

2) You are obviously not in possession of all the information and witness statements obtained by the media.

Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

exactly what i thought, and the two holding the flag have the kind of fixed, obsessed looks one has when thinking, hard, about going to the toilet. so that would leave a dilemma as to who will hold the flag?

Perhaps a fictional rising column of hot air like the one anticipated to keep the country going after Brexit will support it with gentle rocking movements?

 

[gray198]

Let's just keep this in perspective. Yes this is a senseless atrocious act by someone who is obviously deranged. Yes she was a politician but first and foremost she was a human being a mother who was doing her best for what she thought was right. But let's also remember that this sort of thing happens in the UK on a regular basis. We have become so desensitised towards it that quite often it is hardly even reported. Also we have to remember that this lady is the is the first politician to be killed in this country since the troubles with Ireland. Although some others have been targeted, though not when a referendum was in progress. To say that this was a result of people campaigning to leave the Eu is beyond ridiculous, and just shows that some people will use any tragedy to fit their own agenda. I see the 'Racist' card being played again . A very easy thing to use against something you don't agree with. At the moment we still live in a free country with mainly free speech, although that is severely under threat by a minority of people who think we should only say what they agree with. Some of the views expressed are as bigoted as the people they complain about

 

[Volvo]

Surely when someone's argument rests on the assertion that all the 'good guys' are on one side, and all the 'bad guys' are on the other side, it is a sign that little progress will be achieved through rational debate.

The holder of such a view has every right to give voice to their opinions, and actually reveals much regarding their world view. When the nature of that view is described, we have useful information concerning that poster, and can learn how to assess their future posts.

Rather than trying to bend each other into shape, which is always divisive and futile - if we understand where the other is coming from then we can expect a bird to sing, a dog to bark, and a frightened man to give voice to fearful rhetoric.

Volvo.

 

[trex]

@gray198
On the torries side, Boris 'they nick our fish' Johnson is the politician that Brexiters should be wary about. He is more right wing than Thatcher herself. Public services are not safe if he becomes the next PM.