Brexit, for once some facts.

oyster

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Nov 7, 2017
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Wether no deal is viewed as a cliff edge catastophe or a panacea of saviour for UK I can not understand posters on here being so convinced it wont happen. Each passing hour, each indecisive vote, each resignation brings it ever more likely.
Chances of no deal are now highest they have ever been. Personally think its almost inevitable now and might just be what everybody needs to clarify minds.
Our Parliament has literally achieved nothing since referendum yet people are expecting a decision and positive action in next few days. Dont hold your breath.

PS
Danidl. The reason it appears that way is the massive disconnect between MEPs and UK voters. That might well have now changed. Perhaps EU could do something to solve the same malaise, actually worse, in other areas of EU. (Croatia had 16.9% turn out at last EU elections) Average throughout EU is 42%.That is very poor.

I agree there is every possibility of no-deal actually coming to pass.

And if it does, there will be many, many deep and serious issues - for lots of which we do not have adequate preparations. Indeed, in my opinion, we will find many more that no-one has yet publicly discussed.

Cabinet ministers have been told they must set in motion new plans to keep planes flying to North America, as well as keeping British troops legally in Bosnia, in case the EU forces a no-deal exit.

Before their marathon cabinet meeting on Tuesday, the cabinet secretary, Sir Mark Sedwill, briefed ministers that major security and commercial decisions would need to be completed if Brussels rejected Theresa May’s plan to ask for a short extension to article 50.

A cabinet source said the decisions were likely to result in large costs to the taxpayer and that decisions would also need to be taken on direct rule in Northern Ireland and payment of the UK’s £39bn divorce bill to the EU.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/04/ministers-warned-over-planes-and-troops-in-no-deal-brexit
 
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anotherkiwi

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I agree there is every possibility of no-deal actually coming to pass.

And if it does, there will be many, many deep and serious issues - for lots of which we do not have adequate preparations. Indeed, in my opinion, we will find many more that no-one has yet publicly discussed.

Cabinet ministers have been told they must set in motion new plans to keep planes flying to North America, as well as keeping British troops legally in Bosnia, in case the EU forces a no-deal exit.

Before their marathon cabinet meeting on Tuesday, the cabinet secretary, Sir Mark Sedwill, briefed ministers that major security and commercial decisions would need to be completed if Brussels rejected Theresa May’s plan to ask for a short extension to article 50.

A cabinet source said the decisions were likely to result in large costs to the taxpayer and that decisions would also need to be taken on direct rule in Northern Ireland and payment of the UK’s £39bn divorce bill to the EU.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/04/ministers-warned-over-planes-and-troops-in-no-deal-brexit
We have to keep coming back and correcting them don't we?...

1. the EU is forcing no one to do anything, the EU is enforcing it's rules of membership that the UK signed up to when joining. The UK decided to leave (well bits of it did), there is a written protocol (by a UK civil servant no less!) for leaving, the EU is ensuring it is respected.

2. There is no divorce bill, the UK signed "contracts" or "agreements" engaging a certain sum of money, even if it leaves that money is due. Unless the word of the UK isn't worth the paper it is written on?
 

anotherkiwi

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A little laugh from the Telegraph:

Between 2014 and 2020, both Cornwall and West Wales will receive over €1,000 (£800) per person from the EU Structural and Investment Fund - similar to that received by Romania and Bulgaria.

The Scottish Highlands, East Wales and Tees Valley will all receive over €300 per person.


How did Cornwall, West Wales and East Wales vote in the referendum? Shooting classes will resume next week, all those who still have an uninjured foot may join in but unfortunately those who have shot both feet already will be excluded...
 

anotherkiwi

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anotherkiwi

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anotherkiwi

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NI fast forwarding to a great future free of EU funds for infrastructure, way to go DUP(es)
 

Danidl

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The following is an opinion piece, from a German newspaper, and translated and printed by the New York Times . It is timed to coincide with Angela Merkels visit to Dublin today.
I do not think it extreme. While he does not refer to it, there have been 11 ripouts of ATM machines in Border counties in recent days. These raids, consist of ramming a JCB into a bank branch office and extracting the machine. These have been carried out with military like precision,and it is plausible that they are funding operations

Opinion
Brexit, Ireland and the Failure of the European Idea
If the Troubles return, it will signal the defeat of one of the Continent’s great postwar achievements.

Jochen Bittner
By Jochen Bittner
Mr. Bittner is a political editor for the weekly newspaper Die Zeit and a contributing opinion writer.

April 4, 2019

Street fighting against British soldiers in 1971 in Londonderry, Northern Ireland.
Credit
Bruno Barbey/Magnum Photos


Image
Street fighting against British soldiers in 1971 in Londonderry, Northern Ireland.CreditCreditBruno Barbey/Magnum Photos
HAMBURG, Germany — Two weeks ago I was on the outskirts of Derry, a town in Northern Ireland, just a few yards away from the border where Britain ends and the Republic of Ireland begins. Behind a garden wall, a wiry, older man was eager to vent.

“This is Ireland! The English have no business here,” he exclaimed. He pointed down the road toward a small stone bridge. The checkpoint there vanished two decades ago, he said. Should the British try to erect a new guard house, he went on, “we will burn it down.”

Come on, I cajoled him, incredulously. What will really happen if, after Britain leaves the European Union, customs officers or the police might be stationed at what will then be a new border?

“We will stone them,” the man replied, more calmly. He shrugged, warming to his idea. “Yeah. We’ll stone them.”

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There is no end to the problems surrounding Brexit, but especially for the rest of us Europeans, the dilemma at the Irish-British land border is the most perplexing, and perhaps the most concerning, at least in a symbolic sense. This week Chancellor Angela Merkel is traveling to Ireland to see firsthand what is happening.

Europe in the 20th century was marked by hideous violence — often wars, but just as often extended periods of political violence, like the Troubles in Northern Ireland. The great postwar project of European cooperation and unification was an effort to, among other things, make that violence a thing of the past. The Good Friday Agreement, which brought the Troubles to an end, seemed to validate everything we had worked toward, whether “we” were Irish or British or German.

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Subscribe to The Times
Now, with Brexit looming, the talk of renewed violence in Ireland brings that optimism and progress into question.

Whether the Troubles are about to return is still just speculation. But in Ireland, many people believe it. “If there is going to be hard borders in Ireland,” Richard O’Rawe, who showed me around that day, said, “there will most definitely be a flare-up of violence, both in the short and long term.”

Mr. O’Rawe knows what he is talking about. In the 1970s, at the height of the Troubles, he belonged to the Irish Republican Army. He was imprisoned by the British; in prison he served as spokesman for a group of inmates associated with the political activist Bobby Sands, who died after a hunger strike in 1981.

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After prison, Mr. O’Rawe wrote several books on the conflict. He broke with the I.R.A. when it started to target civilians, he said, and became what he saw as an increasingly ruthless terrorist sect.

Twenty years have passed since the Good Friday Agreement. To a German visiting Northern Ireland, a couple of similarities with my own country, reunited 30 years ago, spring to mind. Social cleavages have softened but not vanished. A heavily protected barrier that once was a symbol of unnatural separation has given way to a natural coalescence.

But unlike in Germany, the former oppressor is still a political player in Northern Ireland. Germany has its regional differences, but there is no doubt that we are all Germans. Not so on the island, where resentment at what is seen as English highhandedness runs rife — and where few believe that things will be any better post-Brexit.

Mr. O’Rawe worried that a new, visible dividing line on the island would revive ancient division and anger. “A hard border would cement the injustice that has been historically perpetrated against the Irish people,” he said. “It would be presented as the British government asserting a warped definition of democracy in Ireland to suit their own agenda, and would energize the adage that Britain only respects one thing: the barrel of a gun.”

In the 2016 Brexit referendum, a majority of people in Northern Ireland, 55.8 percent, voted to remain in the European Union. This means that it would be dragged of out the union against its will, and in particular against the will of its Irish nationalists. Support for independence, and a reunification with the Irish republic, is growing.

In London, Prime Minister Theresa May has vowed to respect the peace accord and avoid a hard border in Ireland. But neither she nor anyone else has yet explained how not to control a border that separates a European Union country from a nonunion country. Mrs. May’s Brexit plan leaves open the possibility of at least customs checks along the border; without a plan in place, a hard border will almost certainly be needed.

Mr. O’Rawe believes that the British government, preoccupied with political strife in Westminster, has given no thought to what Brexit might bring in terms of violent Republican reaction. “They see a weak dissident campaign at present,” he said, “and tell themselves that they’ve nothing to worry about. But they are blinkered fools.”

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In January, just a few miles from were I met the angry local man, a car bomb exploded in the center of Derry. No one was injured, luckily, but the entire island was unnerved. The police blame a splinter group called the New I.R.A.

Though the I.R.A. is a small shell of its old self, some suspect that it is eager to see a hard border, and the strife that would accompany it. Martin McAllister, an ex-I.R.A. member I met in South Armagh, said he also quit the organization in the 1970s, when he decided it had devolved into a terrorist criminal enterprise. A few years ago, after he began speaking out about I.R.A. gangsterism, he was ambushed and beaten.

Driving through his home region, Mr. McAllister pointed out a remarkable number of oil tanks and fuel trucks — the sign, he said, of a gasoline-smuggling ring, a continuing activity left over from the Troubles.

“For the I.R.A., this was a way of making money to pursue the war,” he said. “Some of the main leadership of the I.R.A. have been personally involved in it for personal gain.” Profits are lower today, but a border will change that. “If there is a hard border, all these smugglers will have a great time.”

If you believe Mr. McAllister and Mr. O’Rawe, a hard border across the island will effectively be a tripwire. Locals will loathe it. Gangsters will love it. And ultimately, a generation of new resistance fighters might find themselves in a conflict of interest with Godfathers-turned-freedom fighters.

A whole generation of Europeans has grown up seeing Britain as a nation that overcame its bitter sectional differences — proof that cooperation worked, that borders might be a thing of the past. Now not only is Britain turning its back on Europe, but it is also turning its back on one of the signal achievements of the European idea. The ramifications of that decision will reach far beyond .
 

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,845
5,786
The European Union
The following is an opinion piece, from a German newspaper, and translated and printed by the New York Times . It is timed to coincide with Angela Merkels visit to Dublin today.
I do not think it extreme. While he does not refer to it, there have been 11 ripouts of ATM machines in Border counties in recent days. These raids, consist of ramming a JCB into a bank branch office and extracting the machine. These have been carried out with military like precision,and it is plausible that they are funding operations

Opinion
Brexit, Ireland and the Failure of the European Idea
If the Troubles return, it will signal the defeat of one of the Continent’s great postwar achievements.

Jochen Bittner
By Jochen Bittner
Mr. Bittner is a political editor for the weekly newspaper Die Zeit and a contributing opinion writer.

April 4, 2019

Street fighting against British soldiers in 1971 in Londonderry, Northern Ireland.
Credit
Bruno Barbey/Magnum Photos


Image
Street fighting against British soldiers in 1971 in Londonderry, Northern Ireland.CreditCreditBruno Barbey/Magnum Photos
HAMBURG, Germany — Two weeks ago I was on the outskirts of Derry, a town in Northern Ireland, just a few yards away from the border where Britain ends and the Republic of Ireland begins. Behind a garden wall, a wiry, older man was eager to vent.

“This is Ireland! The English have no business here,” he exclaimed. He pointed down the road toward a small stone bridge. The checkpoint there vanished two decades ago, he said. Should the British try to erect a new guard house, he went on, “we will burn it down.”

Come on, I cajoled him, incredulously. What will really happen if, after Britain leaves the European Union, customs officers or the police might be stationed at what will then be a new border?

“We will stone them,” the man replied, more calmly. He shrugged, warming to his idea. “Yeah. We’ll stone them.”

ADVERTISEMENT


There is no end to the problems surrounding Brexit, but especially for the rest of us Europeans, the dilemma at the Irish-British land border is the most perplexing, and perhaps the most concerning, at least in a symbolic sense. This week Chancellor Angela Merkel is traveling to Ireland to see firsthand what is happening.

Europe in the 20th century was marked by hideous violence — often wars, but just as often extended periods of political violence, like the Troubles in Northern Ireland. The great postwar project of European cooperation and unification was an effort to, among other things, make that violence a thing of the past. The Good Friday Agreement, which brought the Troubles to an end, seemed to validate everything we had worked toward, whether “we” were Irish or British or German.

You have 4 free articles remaining.
Subscribe to The Times
Now, with Brexit looming, the talk of renewed violence in Ireland brings that optimism and progress into question.

Whether the Troubles are about to return is still just speculation. But in Ireland, many people believe it. “If there is going to be hard borders in Ireland,” Richard O’Rawe, who showed me around that day, said, “there will most definitely be a flare-up of violence, both in the short and long term.”

Mr. O’Rawe knows what he is talking about. In the 1970s, at the height of the Troubles, he belonged to the Irish Republican Army. He was imprisoned by the British; in prison he served as spokesman for a group of inmates associated with the political activist Bobby Sands, who died after a hunger strike in 1981.

ADVERTISEMENT


After prison, Mr. O’Rawe wrote several books on the conflict. He broke with the I.R.A. when it started to target civilians, he said, and became what he saw as an increasingly ruthless terrorist sect.

Twenty years have passed since the Good Friday Agreement. To a German visiting Northern Ireland, a couple of similarities with my own country, reunited 30 years ago, spring to mind. Social cleavages have softened but not vanished. A heavily protected barrier that once was a symbol of unnatural separation has given way to a natural coalescence.

But unlike in Germany, the former oppressor is still a political player in Northern Ireland. Germany has its regional differences, but there is no doubt that we are all Germans. Not so on the island, where resentment at what is seen as English highhandedness runs rife — and where few believe that things will be any better post-Brexit.

Mr. O’Rawe worried that a new, visible dividing line on the island would revive ancient division and anger. “A hard border would cement the injustice that has been historically perpetrated against the Irish people,” he said. “It would be presented as the British government asserting a warped definition of democracy in Ireland to suit their own agenda, and would energize the adage that Britain only respects one thing: the barrel of a gun.”

In the 2016 Brexit referendum, a majority of people in Northern Ireland, 55.8 percent, voted to remain in the European Union. This means that it would be dragged of out the union against its will, and in particular against the will of its Irish nationalists. Support for independence, and a reunification with the Irish republic, is growing.

In London, Prime Minister Theresa May has vowed to respect the peace accord and avoid a hard border in Ireland. But neither she nor anyone else has yet explained how not to control a border that separates a European Union country from a nonunion country. Mrs. May’s Brexit plan leaves open the possibility of at least customs checks along the border; without a plan in place, a hard border will almost certainly be needed.

Mr. O’Rawe believes that the British government, preoccupied with political strife in Westminster, has given no thought to what Brexit might bring in terms of violent Republican reaction. “They see a weak dissident campaign at present,” he said, “and tell themselves that they’ve nothing to worry about. But they are blinkered fools.”

ADVERTISEMENT


In January, just a few miles from were I met the angry local man, a car bomb exploded in the center of Derry. No one was injured, luckily, but the entire island was unnerved. The police blame a splinter group called the New I.R.A.

Though the I.R.A. is a small shell of its old self, some suspect that it is eager to see a hard border, and the strife that would accompany it. Martin McAllister, an ex-I.R.A. member I met in South Armagh, said he also quit the organization in the 1970s, when he decided it had devolved into a terrorist criminal enterprise. A few years ago, after he began speaking out about I.R.A. gangsterism, he was ambushed and beaten.

Driving through his home region, Mr. McAllister pointed out a remarkable number of oil tanks and fuel trucks — the sign, he said, of a gasoline-smuggling ring, a continuing activity left over from the Troubles.

“For the I.R.A., this was a way of making money to pursue the war,” he said. “Some of the main leadership of the I.R.A. have been personally involved in it for personal gain.” Profits are lower today, but a border will change that. “If there is a hard border, all these smugglers will have a great time.”

If you believe Mr. McAllister and Mr. O’Rawe, a hard border across the island will effectively be a tripwire. Locals will loathe it. Gangsters will love it. And ultimately, a generation of new resistance fighters might find themselves in a conflict of interest with Godfathers-turned-freedom fighters.

A whole generation of Europeans has grown up seeing Britain as a nation that overcame its bitter sectional differences — proof that cooperation worked, that borders might be a thing of the past. Now not only is Britain turning its back on Europe, but it is also turning its back on one of the signal achievements of the European idea. The ramifications of that decision will reach far beyond .
"English highhandedness", "blinkered fools" well, well, well... Or as my photography teacher would say "three deep holes in the ground" o_O
 
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Fingers

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Some epic meltdowns in here today and it's only just lunch!

Keep them coming lads! We need some laughs at this time.
 
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Danidl

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You havent mentioned a solution to the disconnect throughout Europe. How is that anything to do with UK.
Croatia have MEPs with literally just hundreds of votes representing millions of people,yet somehow EU expect rest of Europe to connect with the white male middle class comissioners.???
Reform starts from within, not by voters or even Cameron.
Examine the baclground of EU supporters. Start on here, then look anywhere. Its endemic at moment.
You are reprising a very tired meme. I have no difficulty in being represented by white MEN and WOMEN , as are present in the EU Commission , and EU Parliament . I have no difficulty in being adjudicated by Spanish ,and swarty Italian Judges in the ECJ . I have no difficulty in seeing Vietnamese or Morroccan originating ethnic types in Ireland,France or Turks in Germany. It seems to be that you do have a problem with race. You have brought it up on a number of occasions . Which puts you into the racist category. Since the majority of the population in Europe are mixtures of Hispanic, Angles, Saxons, Celts , Picts, would it be unreasonable to see that mix in the parliamentarians?
Now regarding some countries low participation rates... Might it not be that they are so pleased with the EU that they are not incensed?. Satisfaction breeds complancy.
 

Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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Cant remenber who it was with bs hitter comment but for you...
Dont think anyone was saying EU is falling under far right control anytime soon,but there is a growing trend of nationalism and associated right wing who will be quite rightly taking their places in Brussels if their popularity is reflected in actual MEP numbers. (LePenne and son will be there) How on earth is that bull sh! t??
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36130006
 

Fingers

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Feb 9, 2016
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You are reprising a very tired meme. I have no difficulty in being represented by white MEN and WOMEN , as are present in the EU Commission , and EU Parliament . I have no difficulty in being adjudicated by Spanish ,and swarty Italian Judges in the ECJ . I have no difficulty in seeing Vietnamese or Morroccan originating ethnic types in Ireland,France or Turks in Germany. It seems to be that you do have a problem with race. You have brought it up on a number of occasions . Which puts you into the racist category. Since the majority of the population in Europe are mixtures of Hispanic, Angles, Saxons, Celts , Picts, would it be unreasonable to see that mix in the parliamentarians?
Now regarding some countries low participation rates... Might it not be that they are so pleased with the EU that they are not incensed?. Satisfaction breeds complancy.

Ahh there we are.

Been too long before one of you called someone racist. Or is it because I can't see the old fool anymore? It's possible he has accused numerous people today. Including me I can only guess.
 
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Danidl

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Cant remenber who it was with bs hitter comment but for you...
Dont think anyone was saying EU is falling under far right control anytime soon,but there is a growing trend of nationalism and associated right wing who will be quite rightly taking their places in Brussels if their popularity is reflected in actual MEP numbers. (LePenne and son will be there) How on earth is that bull sh! t??
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36130006
If you go back a few pages you will see that flecc,has preempted you. His analysis is that upwards of 15 to 20% of a population are ,which means that 85% to 80% are not. Now if you look at the numbers of football supporters it might be 20% of a population, of Golf players 10% of cyclists 15% ..Of leisure gardeners 30% of Anglers 30% .. All minorities , all special interest groups all minorities, but together they make up humanity.
 
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Kudoscycles

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Corbyn meeting May today.
Very "one flew over cuckoo's nest".

"Who wants to be a fire engine?"

Put your hand down Jeremy..

I, m speechless at going on over last week or so.
Apparently we left on 29th...Nothing happened..
I think Gina Miller and Anne Widecombe should have had a fight to decide what happens,reckon they are about hardest from each side...

Good job this lot weren't in government in 1939. Hitler would have been in Buckingham Palace for christmas lunch, eating Corgi served by our Queenie... mmmm. There' s a thought..
You are quite right,parents of some ERG members would have marched with Oswald Moseley and the blackshirts,including our king. Dont forget that Rees Mogg's family made their money from dubious mining operations,no wonder he claims that Boer War concentration camps were a necessity and is a supporter of the ADT in Germany.
If you want some idea what this ERG bunch of fascists have in mind for us,look up CPF Singapore,a society where 2% are mega wealthy,most work to live and guest labour are slaves.....it is obvious what the wealthy elite are going to get out of a hard brexit but am surprised that the normal hard working guy/gal has allowed themselves to be hijacked by them.
Thank goodness the EU,Labour,Gina Millar and most of parliament can see them for what they are,you could see Rees-Mogg being the interrogator with the cigarettes!!!!
 

oldgroaner

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Some epic meltdowns in here today and it's only just lunch!

Keep them coming lads! We need some laughs at this time.
Who is the "We" you rabbit on about? all I can see is one laughing fool.
Have you not the slightest notion of the seriousness of the situation?
laughing on your own is not a sign of sanity.
 
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daveboy

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