Brexit, for once some facts.

Fingers

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But of course parliament did no such thing. The referendum asked the public's opinion, the final decision only ever belonged to parliament.

Given how indecisive the result was with the country fairly evenly divided, it's entirely proper for parliament to either make the final decision or go back to the people for that, now the various options are known.
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They published a document that said they would honour the vote.

Why do you keep denying this? The result was binding.

Legally it has to be said otherwise same as the Scottish ref but it was as binding as any vote has ever been.

It just turns out that its all lies and voting is as pointless as a circle.
 

Danidl

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It still could. The delay to the 12th has removed a bit of urgency, but one day there will be a final deadline which could get the deal through. That's more likely if the House gets control instead of the government, since that will panic the ERG into being more co-operative.

And/or of course, May could add customs union to ease the deal into being accepted with Labour's help.
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Flecc, I am puzzled by the current legality. Presumably some kind of resolution must be passed to change the agreed date of 29 to some other date. Tommie kindly produced the relevent section of the withdrawal act stating that 29 th was the date, but allowing a Crown Minister to alter it. It surely cannot be left untouched?.
 
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Danidl

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They published a document that said they would honour the vote.

Why do you keep denying this? The result was binding.

Legally it has to be said otherwise same as the Scottish ref but it was as binding as any vote has ever been.

It just turns out that its all lies and voting is as pointless as a circle.
Fingers, you are either terminally stupid or are feigning it. Even I, an outsider can appreciate the difference between the British Parliament and others. The British parliament is the supreme law making body in the UK and cannot be bound by anything ..not even the contradictory laws and precedences they might pass. The Brexit debacle and referenda was advisory only, irrespective of any statements by even Prime Ministers . .....Because Parliament is supreme.
Other Democracies have more formal checks and balances,in the form of constitutions, independent judiciary,which limit the power of the legislature.
Once the Withdrawal Act was passed by the Parliament it became binding.. up until such time as the British Parliament votes again in a similar Act.
 
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Wicky

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Flecc, I am puzzled by the current legality. Presumably some kind of resolution must be passed to change the agreed date of 29 to some other date. Tommie kindly produced the relevent section of the withdrawal act stating that 29 th was the date, but allowing a Crown Minister to alter it. It surely cannot be left untouched?.
They're processing that in the HoC next Wednesday

"Conservative MP Simon Hoare asks when the secondary legislation needed to change the 29 March Brexit date will be put before MPs to vote on.

After checking, Theresa May says the statutory instrument will be put before the House on Wednesday."
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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As if we haven't amused Europe enough with our brexit shambles, we now have a British Airways plane bound for Dusselfdorf taking off from London City Airport and landing at Edinburgh instead. BA are blaming a paperwork mixup, though it seems only the pilot was involved in that since the rest of the crew felt sure they were going to Germany!

I bet the German media have fun with this.
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Fingers

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Feb 9, 2016
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Fingers, you are either terminally stupid or are feigning it. Even I, an outsider can appreciate the difference between the British Parliament and others. The British parliament is the supreme law making body in the UK and cannot be bound by anything ..not even the contradictory laws and precedences they might pass. The Brexit debacle and referenda was advisory only, irrespective of any statements by even Prime Ministers . .....Because Parliament is supreme.
Other Democracies have more formal checks and balances,in the form of constitutions, independent judiciary,which limit the power of the legislature.
Once the Withdrawal Act was passed by the Parliament it became binding.. up until such time as the British Parliament votes again in a similar Act.

Despite it being otherwise English is clearly not your first language.

I suspect the intricies of said language pass you by.
 

oldgroaner

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Nov 15, 2015
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Surely if we take part in the EU elections the farce is over?

Remain will have won and brexit is over for 4 years at least.

This could destroy the tories so it's not all bad.

I wonder if @flecc still thinks Mays deal will go through?
Actually it was not just flecc. I too forecast Mays deal would get accepted
I am delighted to have been proved WRONG (that is,if I am)
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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They published a document that said they would honour the vote.

Why do you keep denying this? The result was binding.

Legally it has to be said otherwise same as the Scottish ref but it was as binding as any vote has ever been.
The promise to honour the vote had no legal force, so the result was not binding. In our constitution the public cannot rule over parliament so every opinion of the public isn't binding.

That includes general elections, since as subjects of the Crown the people elect a party, but that party has to then seek the Crown's permission to form a government and the Crown's permission to open a parliament. And of course as I pointed out some while ago and it's been confirmed in parliament since, the Crown can prorogue any sitting parliament, should the need arise.

The unpalatable truth is that as subjects and not citizens, we members of the public only have illusory powers but no authority, short of a successful revolution.
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Nev

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May 1, 2018
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Have they actually made a decision about anything in past 3 years?
With the money that has been spent on no deal planning (4 billion), with the money that has been spent on hiring extra civil servants to replace the work that is currently done by the EU. With the lack of investment by businesses here and hence leading to reduces profits and so less tax revenues. With the reduces growth rate over the last three years due to Brexit and hence less tax take. With the money used to bribe the DUP (1 billion). With the Govt not having any bandwidth to tackle many problems which could help the country be more profitable.

How much money could David Cameron have said he would give to every UK adult if we vote to stay in the EU, I'm thinking it could have been at least £2000 probably a lot more and we would still be better off than we are now.

This post was a bit tongue in cheek, but it does make you think how much money has been wasted and how much money has been lost due to the vote in 2016. I hope one day there will be a public inquiry in to this mess and people held accountable if they have deliberately miss led the people.
 

tommie

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Flecc, I am puzzled by the current legality. Presumably some kind of resolution must be passed to change the agreed date of 29 to some other date. Tommie kindly produced the relevent section of the withdrawal act stating that 29 th was the date, but allowing a Crown Minister to alter it. It surely cannot be left untouched?.
Apparently last Friday while nobody was looking some toff from the Foreign Office or wherever, a certain Sir Tim Barrow, our man in Brussels, wrote a letter to the EU which formally agrees to Art.50 being extended, without first waiting for Parliament to approve the extension.
It`s a kind of make it up as you go along/a$$ about face parallel universe we are in now.

BTW, could you set up a stall down there so i can get my passport stamped - thank-you
Brussels confirms return of border checks under no-deal Brexit
British travellers will need to get passport stamped and may be asked about purpose of visit.

British travellers will get a stamp in their passport every time they enter and leave the European Union in the event of a no-deal Brexit, the European commission has confirmed.
The announcement on border checks was revealed days after the British government secured a short extension that shifts the Brexit deadline to 12 April.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/25/brussels-confirms-return-of-border-checks-under-no-deal-brexit
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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They published a document that said they would honour the vote.

Why do you keep denying this? The result was binding.

Legally it has to be said otherwise same as the Scottish ref but it was as binding as any vote has ever been.

It just turns out that its all lies and voting is as pointless as a circle.
Actually Cameron made the promise to quit on the following Monday than refused to do it and quit,so much for honouring the vote.
And the vote was swindled anyway ,as well as too marginal to the point were Farage said if it had gone the other way by that difference it wouldn't have ended the matter.
 
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oyster

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Nov 7, 2017
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Apparently last Friday while nobody was looking some toff from the Foreign Office or wherever, a certain Sir Tim Barrow, our man in Brussels, wrote a letter to the EU which formally agrees to Art.50 being extended, without first waiting for Parliament to approve the extension.
It`s a kind of make it up as you go along/a$$ about face parallel universe we are in now.

BTW, could you set up a stall down there so i can get my passport stamped - thank-you
Brussels confirms return of border checks under no-deal Brexit
British travellers will need to get passport stamped and may be asked about purpose of visit.

British travellers will get a stamp in their passport every time they enter and leave the European Union in the event of a no-deal Brexit, the European commission has confirmed.
The announcement on border checks was revealed days after the British government secured a short extension that shifts the Brexit deadline to 12 April.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/25/brussels-confirms-return-of-border-checks-under-no-deal-brexit
Just how will that work with respect to NI/RoI border? Nothing in your post suggests it would not apply to that border.
 

Fingers

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 9, 2016
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The promise to honour the vote had no legal force, so the result was not binding. In our constitution the public cannot rule over parliament so every opinion of the public isn't binding.

That includes general elections, since as subjects of the Crown the people elect a party, but that party has to then seek the Crown's permission to form a government and the Crown's permission to open a parliament. And of course as I pointed out some while ago and it's been confirmed in parliament since, the Crown can prorogue any sitting parliament, should the need arise.

The unpalatable truth is that as subjects and not citizens, we members of the public only have illusory powers but no authority, short of a successful revolution.
.

We can go around and around saying the same thing.

I know I’m right and you know you’re right.

I can repeat my facts you yours. All referendums are advisory as that is how our law works. The Scot one was.....

Nope I’m not going to repeat it. You’re not listening anyway.
 

tommie

Esteemed Pedelecer
Mar 13, 2013
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Just how will that work with respect to NI/RoI border? Nothing in your post suggests it would not apply to that border.
I have not a clue..............

but-->
The plan for the Irish border remains uncertain. An official said the commission was in talks with the Irish government to ensure that EU law is upheld. “[Checks] will have to be done where they belong but that doesn’t mean we want to see visible infrastructure at the border,” the official said.

While preparations were being taken “extremely seriously”, delays could not be avoided: “Disruption will occur and nothing will be smooth … There will be frictions, it’s pretty clear.”

Probably flies in the face of the Freedom of Movement and The Good Friday Agreement Acts - but seemingly no-one worries about laws or binding treaties any more
 
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50Hertz

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Jan 2, 2019
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The promise to honour the vote had no legal force, so the result was not binding. In our constitution the public cannot rule over parliament so every opinion of the public isn't binding.

The unpalatable truth is that as subjects and not citizens, we members of the public only have illusory powers but no authority, short of a successful revolution.
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You are correct in what you say. However, David Cameron clearly and unmistakably promised that the government would ask the people whether they wanted to remain in the EU or leave the EU. He further promised that the government would carry out the wishes of the people as indicated by the result of the referendum. There was no ambiguity or conditions attached. I appreciate and I fully understand that there is no legal obligation to honour the trust which the government asked people to extend to them. MPs approved the process by 544 votes for to 53 against, so they all fully understood what they were signing up to and backed it to the hilt.

Personally, I really hope that the government withdraws A50 and puts the whole sorry mess in the bin, but I can see and I can feel the anger of those who feel cheated, let-down, betrayed and even abused by MPs on all sides. What they have done, beginning with approving a referendum in the first place, is a most appalling act of mismanagement, abuse of trust and cowardice. It's shocking and it's unacceptable.

Instead of Leavers and Remainers channelling their anger, frustrations and even hatred towards each other, they should be channelling all of those feelings in the direction of Westminster. MPs have no stake in the consequences of their actions. They approve a series of events, completely safe in the knowledge that the consequences of their decisions will not touch, harm or influence their lives in any way. It's the same with starting wars. Politicians do not fight on the front lines, they have no stake in the consequences, it's not their own lives they are jeopardising in a conflict. Maybe it's time that changed.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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Nope I’m not going to repeat it. You’re not listening anyway.
I'm listening and always have an open mind, but you haven't posted anything that changes the reality of our constitution in this respect.

The Crown and Parliament are always sovereign over the people, no matter what any government or parliament mistakenly or dishonestly states to the contrary. In Scotland, England or the UK.
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