Brexit, for once some facts.

OxygenJames

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While we rat on about Brexit - France today withdrew its Ambassador from Rome over their tussle about a massive long list of grievances.

From the NYT:

It has happened rarely between European Union allies, and not between France and Italy since the start of World War II. But on Thursday, after months of barbed commentary from Italian leaders, the French government said it had had enough: It recalled its ambassador from Rome.

“This is without precedent since 1940, when Mussolini declared war,” said Marc Lazar, a leading specialist of Franco-Italian relations who teaches at universities in Paris and Rome. “This is very, very harsh. There’s never been anything comparable.’’

The grave step not only demonstrated the breakdown of relations between France and Italy, two founding members of the European Union. It also reflected the mounting strains at Europe’s core, brought on by populists who are now overreaching in their attempts to denigrate the bloc and forge anti-European alliances across borders.

The list of insults, particularly on the Italian side, has grown long, and progressively more outrageous as the Italian populist leaders try to score political points at home by attacking backers of the vision of a united Europe — the French president, Emmanuel Macron, first among them.

But the final straw appears to have come on Tuesday, when Italy’s deputy prime minister, Luigi Di Maio, the political leader of the populist Five Star Movement, met in France with a leader of the Yellow Vest protesters who have besieged Mr. Macron’s government with violent protests.

Mr. Di Maio, the political leader of the Five Star Movement, and Alessandro Di Battista, a rabble rouser who many consider the party’s leader-in-waiting, posted a picture on their social media pages of a meeting near Paris with Christophe Chalencon, an organizer of the Yellow Vest movement from the south of France who has called for civil war.
 
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OxygenJames

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 8, 2012
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While we rat on about Brexit - France today withdrew its Ambassador from Rome over their tussle about a massive long list of grievances.

From the NYT:

It has happened rarely between European Union allies, and not between France and Italy since the start of World War II. But on Thursday, after months of barbed commentary from Italian leaders, the French government said it had had enough: It recalled its ambassador from Rome.

“This is without precedent since 1940, when Mussolini declared war,” said Marc Lazar, a leading specialist of Franco-Italian relations who teaches at universities in Paris and Rome. “This is very, very harsh. There’s never been anything comparable.’’

The grave step not only demonstrated the breakdown of relations between France and Italy, two founding members of the European Union. It also reflected the mounting strains at Europe’s core, brought on by populists who are now overreaching in their attempts to denigrate the bloc and forge anti-European alliances across borders.

The list of insults, particularly on the Italian side, has grown long, and progressively more outrageous as the Italian populist leaders try to score political points at home by attacking backers of the vision of a united Europe — the French president, Emmanuel Macron, first among them.

But the final straw appears to have come on Tuesday, when Italy’s deputy prime minister, Luigi Di Maio, the political leader of the populist Five Star Movement, met in France with a leader of the Yellow Vest protesters who have besieged Mr. Macron’s government with violent protests.

Mr. Di Maio, the political leader of the Five Star Movement, and Alessandro Di Battista, a rabble rouser who many consider the party’s leader-in-waiting, posted a picture on their social media pages of a meeting near Paris with Christophe Chalencon, an organizer of the Yellow Vest movement from the south of France who has called for civil war.
This last part's interesting:

“It’s a confrontation between two very different conceptions of Europe,” said Mr. Lazar — the ultranationalist, populist conception of Mr. Salvini, and Mr. Macron’s constant proselytizing for a more unified, transnational Europe.

Mr. Macron’s palpable disdain for the Italian populists has only multiplied Italian fury at the French government.
 
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Danidl

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[

Yes, there is a severe democratuc deficit.
Many on here have often criticised the nature of our referendum. Citing advisory and fact that approaching 30% didnt vote and are probably not being represented in what was a direct democratic vote. Now imagine what those people would be saying had approaching 60% not bothered voting and decision had been made with a winning vote of 22%.Quite rightly folk would be saying result lacks legitamacy, could not represent people's feelings etc etc. Now that is exactly situation throughout EU, ie approaching 60% of voters didnt vote.(dont vote, a drop of 30% since 1979) Agreed, it could be fault of individuals, the countries, the MEPs or anyone but whoever's fault it is does not change the fact that turn out, even in an indirect democracy, produces a democratic deficit. And the responsibility for that lies firnly with those inheriting power.The EU.
If it were some African nation electing a government with turn outs of around 40% we, d all be saying.. Hang on a minute that means government in power could have got there with as little as 22% support. Thats not democracy Danidl, no matter what machinery, logistics and proceedures are in place. And thats before we bring in fact Comissioners are appointed by elected members. (and not elected)
The first step by all is to recognise there is an issue before anyone can change it. You are arguing its fine. It isnt. Its a poor model of democracy to base the lives of is it 650,000,000 people..??
The EU without doubt has a severe democratic deficit both for reasons mentioned and fact that millions are not represented. (Asians, Black, Ethnic minorities)
I, m not for a moment saying this makes EU defunct. It simply needs to change radically. If that necessity isnt even realised I for one certainly want out and to be part of a system I can alter.
I am not responsible for the voting patterns in Italy Poland , Spain or UK.. what I am however sure is that people there had the OPPORTUNITY to vote. Whether they choose to excercise that right is and was their choice. .
Now you are flip flopping between at least three sets of alleged discriminations based on wafer thin arguements,and if you continue to do this it is impossible to rationally present any case.
The number of female elected MEPs is currently at 36.1% , presumably from a potential ideal of 49.5% .
Incidentally RoI has 6/11 of our MEPs as female.
The number of Commissioners is a similar percentage.
The number of chairs of committees is 50%. ..in other words discrimination
Source... EU Womens day 2018.
Neither these two numbers at 36 % are under the control of the EU,as it is National Parliaments and National elections who choose their candidates.
These figures compare very favourably with the US Congress which is at 24% .
More pertinently the EU has elevated more women to positions in authority than their numbers would justify. I hope that is because they are exceptional candidates, as indeed our Mairead McGuiness ,who is a vice President of the Parliament happens to be.
In Ireland we have choosen to use proportional representation as a method of voting. It does mean
that voter engagement is higher. A first passed the post system with a single seat ,disencourges engagement unless the constituency is very volatile or marginal. Multi seat constituencies encourage diversity and parliamentary representation in line with the population distribution.

You then move on to minorities .. Within a Republic there are no minorities..there are citizens. Citizens have a right to vote,a right to put themselves up for elections . It takes time and will hapoen, orivided barriers are not put up. We in Ireland have a large Polish contingent. ,They are not yet represented in National politics, but are in local county councils.. That is how it is done.
We have a small Muslim community in a rural location ,Co Mayo, associated with halal meat production. Under our PR system ,they elected a TD (MP) to the national parliament, in the previous Dail.
 
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flecc

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Ofcourse you called me a bigot. Which flecc seems to approve of, but since I, m pointing out a couple of obvious flaws with EU he would.
That is bigotry since I've already acknowledged to you that the EU has flaws, so you know that wouldn't be my having grounds to agree.

I was agreeing with OG's challenge , the assumption that only people with the same origin can represent them. This quote of his:

"it's a lie, plain and simple, it's based on the very wrong assumption that only someone with the same ethnic origin can can represent them."

I'm a white English male but have been happy to be represented in London at various times by black or brown persons. And my current MP Sarah Brown is of course a woman which I am not, but I still voted for her and don't think she's unable to represent me because she's not male. Just as I voted for our current mayor, Sadiq Khan who is non white.

I don't care what colour, race or gender anyone is to be in any authority, I only care that they should be capable.
.
 

Zlatan

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I am not responsible for the voting patterns in Italy Poland , Spain or UK.. what I am however sure is that people there had the OPPORTUNITY to vote. Whether they choose to excercise that right is and was their choice. .
Now you are flip flopping between at least three sets of alleged discriminations based on wafer thin arguements,and if you continue to do this it is impossible to rationally present any case.
The number of female elected MEPs is currently at 36.1% , presumably from a potential ideal of 49.5% .
Incidentally RoI has 6/11 of our MEPs as female.
The number of Commissioners is a similar percentage.
The number of chairs of committees is 50%. ..in other words discrimination
Source... EU Womens day 2018.
Neither these two numbers at 36 % are under the control of the EU,as it is National Parliaments and National elections who choose their candidates.
These figures compare very favourably with the US Congress which is at 24% .
More pertinently the EU has elevated more women to positions in authority than their numbers would justify. I hope that is because they are exceptional candidates, as indeed our Mairead McGuiness ,who is a vice President of the Parliament happens to be.
In Ireland we have choosen to use proportional representation as a method of voting. It does mean
that voter engagement is higher. A first passed the post system with a single seat ,disencourges engagement unless the constituency is very volatile or marginal. Multi seat constituencies encourage diversity and parliamentary representation in line with the population distribution.

You then move on to minorities .. Within a Republic there are no minorities..there are citizens. Citizens have a right to vote,a right to put themselves up for elections . It takes time and will hapoen, orivided barriers are not put up. We in Ireland have a large Polish contingent. ,They are not yet represented in National politics, but are in local county councils.. That is how it is done.
We have a small Muslim community in a rural location ,Co Mayo, associated with halal meat production. Under our PR system ,they elected a TD (MP) to the national parliament, in the previous Dail.
Good answer. But firstly you are explaining why only 42% chose to vote, which may well be correct. The reason is irrelevant. Any system where only 42 % vote is flawed and produces a democratic deficit for the remaining 60%.."(ok 58%) That poor out turn should be a priority for EU to improve whatever the reasoning. You cant blame the people, its got to be the system.
I agree with rest of your post within a limit. Yes, eventually all immigrants, ethnicities are part of the destined nation. But no matter how you examine it the backgrounds and skin colour of EU Comisioners does not represent those of population at large. Yes, ideally it should not matter but it does. Is the EU a republic? Not sure about that.
Your entire post however is more along lines of justifying the EU's identityas it is when in reality it does need to change.
Why should EU be dominated by white males,ok nearly all Western governments are but the EU is in reality the latest to be formed and has had opportunity to trully embrace equal opportunities for all, gender, ethnicity and colour.This has not been a priority for them.
Please explain why EU should be almost uniquely governed by white males? Or do you really believe their distribution within EU Council/Commisioners actually reflects the same distribution in population of EU at large?I doubt it. Why is that not a priority to change. Perhaps if that changed would turn out improve?
 
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Zlatan

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That is bigotry since I've already acknowledged to you that the EU has flaws, so you know that wouldn't be my having grounds to agree.

I was agreeing with OG's challenge , the assumption that only people with the same origin can represent them. This quote of his:

"it's a lie, plain and simple, it's based on the very wrong assumption that only someone with the same ethnic origin can can represent them."

I'm a white English male but have been happy to be represented in London at various times by black or brown persons. And my current MP Sarah Brown is of course a woman which I am not, but I still voted for her and don't think she's unable to represent me because she's not male. Just as I voted for our current mayor, Sadiq Khan who is non white.

I don't care what colour, race or gender anyone is to be in any authority, I only care that they should be capable.
.
I should hope you were happy but I notice you made the distinction. Why is that not the case at EU then flecc?
You are simply pointing out an area where our democracy is more legitimate than that of the EU. Why are we not expecting similar on EU council, Comisioners.??
And, yes I, m happy any race, gender, ethnicity represent me but I would hope the overall ethnicity, gender, race at government level represents that of the population being represented.
That is completely different to individual representation. MPs dont just represent individuals. They represent cultures and beliefs.
That should be a given in any government. Without it whole groups become disaffected and withdraw from "your" democracy.Perhaps that why EU elections have dropped to 42% turnout. People feel disconnected from government.
And suggesting so makes me nothing of any kind of a bigot. Quite the reverse.
 
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flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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I should hope you were happy but I notice you made the distinction. Why is that not the case at EU then flecc?
How many times????

The EU doesn't have the power to decide who is elected to the European parliament.

The EU doesn't have the power to tell the member countries who to send as their commissioner.

They have to accept who arrives, because the EU is democratic and not a dictatorship.

Danidl is right, it's impossible to discuss rationally with you.
.
 
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oyster

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Looks like tory policy will end up blocking tory policy...

Council budget cuts in Ramsgate could disrupt Seaborne Freight’s no-deal Brexit plans to run ferries to Belgium
Thanet District Council could prevent Seaborne Freight from running a service to Belgium
Local council budget cuts could disrupt plans to reopen a ferry port in Ramsgate in the event of a no-deal Brexit.

The Government last month handed Seaborne Freight a £13.8 million contract to run a service between Ramsgate in Kent to Ostend, Belgium, as part of contingency plans for leaving the EU without a deal.

It is hoped that the provision, which is one of many, will help to alleviate anticipated delays and queues at the Port of Dover after Brexit. Questions were immediately raised over the controversial deal with Seaborne Freight however, as the company does not own any ships.

But that may not matter, as Thanet District Council, which owns and operates Ramsgate Ferry Port, is proposing a series of funding cuts that could make running such services impossible.

https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/ramsgate-port-ferry-plans-seaborne-freight-brexit-no-deal-council-budget/
 
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Zlatan

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How many times????

The EU doesn't have the power to decide who is elected to the European parliament.

The EU doesn't have the power to tell the member countries who to send as their commissioner.

They have to accept who arrives, because the EU is democratic and not a dictatorship.

Danidl is right, it's impossible to discuss rationally with you.
.
Yep, well thats ok then. The EU's democratic deficit is somebody elses fault even though its producing a 42% turn out for EU elections. Lets just ignore it then untill turn out is under 30% or even becomes unneeded and pointless. And we, ll just carry on with white males only at EU..
And then wonder at disatifaction about EU.
No matter what the cause its upto EU to change situation.
 
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flecc

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Yep, well thats ok then. The EU's democratic deficit is somebody elses fault
I didn't say it was ok and never have. But yes, any democratic deficit is the fault of the countries who don't send to it democratically, either through voter or government failures.

But Zlatan, instead of you constantly ranting about this, tell me:

How would you put right the democratic deficit you see?
.
 
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jonathan.agnew

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Danny Danny Danny. Again. Let me repeat you don't seem to get it. People do not vote or buy or decide almost anything based on 'rationale' alone.

That's not how humans work. You'd probably prefer it if they did - for then you might think you stand a chance of proving that your version of 'rational' is the right one. Good luck with that.

Like I say - ET call home
I think these abrupt irrational leaps of bigoted faith is a brexit speciality. You shouldn't generalise beyond that lunatic fringe. Remainers I speak too made informed rational decisions, not assumptions based on the ramblings of hairy populist apes like boris
 

Fingers

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I think these abrupt irrational leaps of bigoted faith is a brexit speciality. You shouldn't generalise beyond that lunatic fringe. Remainers I speak too made informed rational decisions, not assumptions based on the ramblings of hairy populist apes like boris

Stop telling lies.

All you do is pop up every now and again, insult or abuse posters and say lies.

It’s boring. Try and engage in the debate.

Please.
 
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oyster

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Stop telling lies.

All you do is pop up every now and again, insult or abuse posters and say lies.

It’s boring. Try and engage in the debate.

Please.
Boris is a rambling hairy populist ape. That is not a lie. Nor is it in any meaningful sense an insult.

(Ape, of course, used in the colloquial sense.)
 

oldgroaner

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Totally agreed OG. Well said. We might be able to move on now.
Ofcourse you called me a bigot. Which flecc seems to approve of, but since I, m pointing out a couple of obvious flaws with EU he would.
And you didnt answer either points.
Altering posts again? I told you before not to stoop to doing such a thing, you really are falling far below the expected standards in public debate.
By all means move on...
And I did not call you a bigot, you chose to identify with that label.
 
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oldgroaner

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This last part's interesting:

“It’s a confrontation between two very different conceptions of Europe,” said Mr. Lazar — the ultranationalist, populist conception of Mr. Salvini, and Mr. Macron’s constant proselytizing for a more unified, transnational Europe.

Mr. Macron’s palpable disdain for the Italian populists has only multiplied Italian fury at the French government.
You are forgetting that the Italian is a right wing nutter like the ones we have here in the Conservative Government, and that is not the fault of the EU.
 

oldgroaner

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Stop telling lies.

All you do is pop up every now and again, insult or abuse posters and say lies.

It’s boring. Try and engage in the debate.

Please.
What lie did he tell? and who was insulted?
Neither assertion is true, no in any way do they engage in the debate, you were simply being insulting and trying to create a diversion as usual.
 

jonathan.agnew

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Dec 27, 2018
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That is bigotry since I've already acknowledged to you that the EU has flaws, so you know that wouldn't be my having grounds to agree.

I was agreeing with OG's challenge , the assumption that only people with the same origin can represent them. This quote of his:

"it's a lie, plain and simple, it's based on the very wrong assumption that only someone with the same ethnic origin can can represent them."

I'm a white English male but have been happy to be represented in London at various times by black or brown persons. And my current MP Sarah Brown is of course a woman which I am not, but I still voted for her and don't think she's unable to represent me because she's not male. Just as I voted for our current mayor, Sadiq Khan who is non white.

I don't care what colour, race or gender anyone is to be in any authority, I only care that they should be capable.
.
Conversely, I am represented by a wealthy white female tory mp despite voting Labour. Does the EU really have more of a democratic deficit than the Westminster system? I'm less upset about Arlene Foster deciding the fate of f England than about my tory mp (who voted for May's proposal)
 

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