the EU needs closer union to enable more direct accountability, something many Brits do not want.
When the UK leaves, the EU27 may be able to evolve more quickly.
Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
- Start date
When the UK leaves, the EU27 may be able to evolve more quickly.
Comedy in the Telegraph
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/02/01/britains-best-chance-revenge-lost-brexit-remain-eu/?WT.mc_id=tmgoff_pso-tw_subsbrand_premeditorial-jan_twfeed_subsconversion_A155_A252_C008732&utm_source=tmgoff&utm_medium=tmgoff_pso-tw&utm_content=subsbrand_premeditorial&utm_campaign=tmgoff_pso-tw_subsbrand_premeditorial-jan_twfeed_subsconversion_A155_A252_C008732
Britain's best chance of revenge for its lost Brexit is to remain in the EU
Britain’s best chance of getting revenge on Brussels for its Brexit bullying is to remain in the European Union.
For the EU’s most fanatical and full-throated theologians, few outcomes could be more horrific than an intransigent, hostile Britain trapped in a project that it plots to undermine from the inside.
............................................................
Amazingly that's a perfect descrition of how we have behaved for the last 40 years!
So why would they be bothered now?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/02/01/britains-best-chance-revenge-lost-brexit-remain-eu/?WT.mc_id=tmgoff_pso-tw_subsbrand_premeditorial-jan_twfeed_subsconversion_A155_A252_C008732&utm_source=tmgoff&utm_medium=tmgoff_pso-tw&utm_content=subsbrand_premeditorial&utm_campaign=tmgoff_pso-tw_subsbrand_premeditorial-jan_twfeed_subsconversion_A155_A252_C008732
Britain's best chance of revenge for its lost Brexit is to remain in the EU
Britain’s best chance of getting revenge on Brussels for its Brexit bullying is to remain in the European Union.
For the EU’s most fanatical and full-throated theologians, few outcomes could be more horrific than an intransigent, hostile Britain trapped in a project that it plots to undermine from the inside.
............................................................
Amazingly that's a perfect descrition of how we have behaved for the last 40 years!
So why would they be bothered now?
Oh I see... playing the downtrodden minorities card as if there is a virtue to that? then by all means lets elect Anarchist, Communists Flat Earthers, and Cannibals on a quota basis subdivided into Blonds, brunettes and redheads and a quota for Bald headed people and those with beards too.
By the way, even though I didn't have your permission I didn't vote at all in the last GE accepting the futility of it all.
And if there is to be another GE I won't be voting either, this time as I really see no point in voting for either a party with no chance of getting into power or one that stupidly steps forward to take the blame for the other parties wrong doing.
If the Labour Party wants to commit political suicide then they do it without my approval.
The only ways they can get my vote are as follows
Either vote to remain in the EU
Or support another referendum
another nail-on-head moment from Nigel... and following on a superb analysis from one Irish contributor
JDela10 1 year ago (edited)
I'm Irish and can't disagree with Nigel on this.
Leo Varadkar was indeed a star of the European People's Party. In 2009, as a member of Enda Kenny's shadow cabinet in opposition he stood with his party, and the government, in supporting the second referendum on the Treaty of Lisbon, which was held while the Irish economy was in free fall, and they successfully played the fear card. Eight years later, in 2017,
Leo Varadkar had the nerve to "remind" Britain that Northern Ireland had voted to Remain in the EU. Where was Leo's concern for the people of the Republic when we rejected Lisbon in 2008? As a Pro-EU politician, he couldn't accept it, and No voters were essentially made to justify their No vote.
When their answer didn't please their opponents, the opponents simply found a way to hold a second referendum and still pretend to be democratic.
This only happens with the EU in Europe. Rebuff the EU at the ballot box and you are pushed to explain yourself, and then when the pro-EU forces don't think you've convinced them of your concerns, they will either have your vote ignored or just run it again.
Make no mistake, this isn't a member state phenomenon, these decisions are made by pro-EU politicians often linked to pan-European political groups. Leo Varadkar's government is also bringing Ireland into Pesco. Pesco may be voluntary, but the Irish held up the Treaty of Nice in 2001 over concerns about common defense, and Pesco is a common defense initiative.
We were told that the second referendum would amend the constitution to also bar the state from entering such a pact. Obviously, that wasn't the case, the Irish were deceived again.
Ireland benefited from EEC membership primarily because it forced Ireland to abandoned protectionism at the state level. It also benefited in many ways from EU membership, but there have been serious side effects.
It is hard, for example, to make a case for Ireland having net benefit from the EU ever since the introduction of the Euro.
The ECB didn't help matters in the crucial bubble years in Ireland setting interest rate around 2% (when Bank of England was as high as 4.5%) to suit the German export economy.
For Ireland and several EU countries with debt bubbles, it was throwing petrol on the fire and the central bank of ireland was powerless to counteract it. Multiple Irish governments have also kept Ireland on a path of relying so heavily on FDI, typically from U.S. multinationals.
They say we need EU membership or else these companies will leave. In reality, they are here for tax reasons more than anything else, and Irish indigenous producers have failed to learn from the foreign exporters in Ireland. Recently this was said by the Intel CEO, and he was right.
Last figures I saw, Ireland has about 3,000 indigenous exporters. Denmark, which has about a million more people (~20% higher population or so), is closer to 30,000.
FDI in Ireland makes Irish GDP look larger than it actually is, and gives a skewed number on Irish exports. If you measure the Irish economy by a more reliable metric, like Actual Individual Consumption, which is a more accurate measure of the wealth of the people (since it measures what they can afford to purchase in terms of goods and services), Ireland is somewhere around Spain, well below the EU average.
Ireland is not that wealthy a nation and this tax trick and FDI won't last forever. Then what? We all emigrate again?
Even the unemployment figures are *******. The government has people on so called Job's Schemes where they do a few hours cutting grass at a local sports club or something a week and they receive their social welfare benefits.
These people are NOT employed, but are not counted as unemployed. The Irish government claims around 6% unemployment rate. When you take into account people on schemes.. it's around 15%.
This will end in tears.
JDela10 1 year ago (edited)
I'm Irish and can't disagree with Nigel on this.
Leo Varadkar was indeed a star of the European People's Party. In 2009, as a member of Enda Kenny's shadow cabinet in opposition he stood with his party, and the government, in supporting the second referendum on the Treaty of Lisbon, which was held while the Irish economy was in free fall, and they successfully played the fear card. Eight years later, in 2017,
Leo Varadkar had the nerve to "remind" Britain that Northern Ireland had voted to Remain in the EU. Where was Leo's concern for the people of the Republic when we rejected Lisbon in 2008? As a Pro-EU politician, he couldn't accept it, and No voters were essentially made to justify their No vote.
When their answer didn't please their opponents, the opponents simply found a way to hold a second referendum and still pretend to be democratic.
This only happens with the EU in Europe. Rebuff the EU at the ballot box and you are pushed to explain yourself, and then when the pro-EU forces don't think you've convinced them of your concerns, they will either have your vote ignored or just run it again.
Make no mistake, this isn't a member state phenomenon, these decisions are made by pro-EU politicians often linked to pan-European political groups. Leo Varadkar's government is also bringing Ireland into Pesco. Pesco may be voluntary, but the Irish held up the Treaty of Nice in 2001 over concerns about common defense, and Pesco is a common defense initiative.
We were told that the second referendum would amend the constitution to also bar the state from entering such a pact. Obviously, that wasn't the case, the Irish were deceived again.
Ireland benefited from EEC membership primarily because it forced Ireland to abandoned protectionism at the state level. It also benefited in many ways from EU membership, but there have been serious side effects.
It is hard, for example, to make a case for Ireland having net benefit from the EU ever since the introduction of the Euro.
The ECB didn't help matters in the crucial bubble years in Ireland setting interest rate around 2% (when Bank of England was as high as 4.5%) to suit the German export economy.
For Ireland and several EU countries with debt bubbles, it was throwing petrol on the fire and the central bank of ireland was powerless to counteract it. Multiple Irish governments have also kept Ireland on a path of relying so heavily on FDI, typically from U.S. multinationals.
They say we need EU membership or else these companies will leave. In reality, they are here for tax reasons more than anything else, and Irish indigenous producers have failed to learn from the foreign exporters in Ireland. Recently this was said by the Intel CEO, and he was right.
Last figures I saw, Ireland has about 3,000 indigenous exporters. Denmark, which has about a million more people (~20% higher population or so), is closer to 30,000.
FDI in Ireland makes Irish GDP look larger than it actually is, and gives a skewed number on Irish exports. If you measure the Irish economy by a more reliable metric, like Actual Individual Consumption, which is a more accurate measure of the wealth of the people (since it measures what they can afford to purchase in terms of goods and services), Ireland is somewhere around Spain, well below the EU average.
Ireland is not that wealthy a nation and this tax trick and FDI won't last forever. Then what? We all emigrate again?
Even the unemployment figures are *******. The government has people on so called Job's Schemes where they do a few hours cutting grass at a local sports club or something a week and they receive their social welfare benefits.
These people are NOT employed, but are not counted as unemployed. The Irish government claims around 6% unemployment rate. When you take into account people on schemes.. it's around 15%.
This will end in tears.
Thats why you said you, d voted lib dem. Or were going to.
So yoy vote to remain if it comess from Labour.??
And I, m not playing any card. Simple fact is many millions are not represented in EU. That is not democracy. Fact.
And all I, m doing is explaining, with justification, why I believe EU to be in democratic deficit.
All you have done is argue without either reasons as to why it is not how I describe or agree with the reasoning offered. You just argue. Perhaps you, d like to be governed by a system appointed by a winning vote of 22%? I doubt it somehow. Or you think a system that has no representation for vast numbers is acceptable, as long as you arent one of the unrepresented.
I think thats called selfish OG, not corny.
And not sure how Tommie's post can be given a boring. Thats ridiculous.
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From Business Insider
"
Corbyn's new conditions for backing a deal are that:
Anyone care to give odds on this little fantasy being accepted by May, the ERG or the EU?
"
Corbyn's new conditions for backing a deal are that:
- May must accept a "permanent and comprehensive UK-wide customs union."
- May must accept "close alignment with the Single Market" including maintaining the UK's existing "institutions and obligations" — the clearest signal yet that Labour could back the continued free movement of people from the EU.
- Continued alignment to EU rules, regulations and "protections.
- Continued participation in EU agencies and programmes.
- Continued co-operation in Europe-wide security arrangements.
Anyone care to give odds on this little fantasy being accepted by May, the ERG or the EU?
I said I was likely to, but changed my mind as it was pointless
If Labour decides to put Remain in it's Manifesto as a pledge, yes, I would vote for them, I really don't think that they would turn out any worse economics worse than the Tory party have.
As against the lies about unemployment on the mainland? same over here Tommie
No Zlatan it's a lie, plain and simple, it's based on the very wrong assumption that only someone with the same ethnic originan can represent them.
There's a word for that and the word is bigotry
Well i`ll agree with you on that one..
The government has people on so called Job's Schemes where they do a few hours cutting grass at a local sports club or something a week and they receive their social welfare benefits.
These people are NOT employed, but are not counted as unemployed.
When there is disagreement it shows that the EU is weak and failing. When there is agreement it shows that the EU is some monstrous cabal.
Have just been reading a letter from a motor insurance company. Due to brexit, the company is relocating their HO to Luxembourg, and then opening a branch in the UK.
Broadly, no change to cover, etc. but for at least some of the time, the insurance will be with the EU HO company not the UK branch company.
I wonder how many thousands of such moves are taking place? I wonder how much business is going to be lost from the UK? A tiny amount? Or many millions?
Broadly, no change to cover, etc. but for at least some of the time, the insurance will be with the EU HO company not the UK branch company.
I wonder how many thousands of such moves are taking place? I wonder how much business is going to be lost from the UK? A tiny amount? Or many millions?
Thats great as long as its your way around and that makes you the bigot. By your argument we, d still have colonialisation with all leaders white middle class males in power and rest doing all the work. Its just same OG and you are justifying it. And ofcourse fair people of any ethnic identity can govern any group but at moment we have EU governed by white males and I get called a bigot for questioning it. Only you could do that OG.
The EU needs to change.
And as normal just nasty arguments and insults from you.
You have not addressed any of the issues around EU democratic deficit. ie) Only 42,% turn out last EU election.
Its a waste of time discussing with you OG. You are incapable of looking at anything from another stand point.
You havent gpt it in you to say "yes, you have a point, EU must increase turn out at elections"
Or, yes "there should be a more diverse mixture of ethnicities in EU council"... Both blatant and true.. Not fron you.. Oh no.. Its you are a bigot for suggesting EU needs to have representation fron all. Beginning to think you are actually ill.
Put me back on ignore OG. Please.
I know why fingers ended up calling you a [removed] He was right.
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It is a waste of time as you are doing what you accuse me of, and you simply refuse to face that fact.
I have no objection to someone of any race creed colour or religion representing me, yet you seem outraged at that idea on behalf of someone else , and that someone else that you claim you are representing, you have never met or consulted.
You are in fact openly claiming that "white" politicians are biassed against people from other ethnic origins, with no proof whatever that that is the case.
And you take it on yourself to state that a poor turnout is because people agree with your opinion?
Nonsense!
Don't you mean the country with the most Tax Dodgers? and that quote is a gross exaggeration.
I said no such thing you idiot.
You are assuming those of other backgrounds cant by wanting to maintain staus quo.
And yet again just argue rather than give a specific answer about the 42% turn out.
You are making the assumptions.
You sound like South Africans supporting apartied 40 years ago. They could have kept white males in power and justified it.
I, m not resonding to you anymore OG.
You are the bigot. Fact.
I offered no explanation as to why only 42% turned out, only offered the view that that level of turn out represents a democratic deficit. Which it does.
Please tell me why you want EU governed by white males and why 42% is an adequate turn out for a deomocracy to survive.
Why should only white males govern an organisation including 50% females and millions of people from other ethnic backgrounds.
You represent all thats wrong with our country at moment.
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What's another Broken law to them?
"
Right-wing think tank Institute of Economic Affairs issued with formal warning after Brexit report ‘breached charity law’
Document criticising Theresa May's Chequers plan 'was not sufficiently balanced' and sought to influence government policy on 'an issue unrelated to the charity’s purposes', regulator finds
You would imagine that if you call yourself a "Think Tank" you wouldn't do something stupid like break the law because you forgot the limits placed on Charity status you used to dodge tax!
"
Right-wing think tank Institute of Economic Affairs issued with formal warning after Brexit report ‘breached charity law’
Document criticising Theresa May's Chequers plan 'was not sufficiently balanced' and sought to influence government policy on 'an issue unrelated to the charity’s purposes', regulator finds
You would imagine that if you call yourself a "Think Tank" you wouldn't do something stupid like break the law because you forgot the limits placed on Charity status you used to dodge tax!
No Zlatan, and you mustn't call me an idiot remember? the chip on your shoulder over ethnicity is clouding your judgement.
And for your information I didn't call you a bigot I wrote this
"
No Zlatan it's a lie, plain and simple, it's based on the very wrong assumption that only someone with the same ethnic originan can represent them.
There's a word for that and the word is bigotry "
You chose to identify with that., care to explain why you did?
Totally agreed OG. Well said. We might be able to move on now.
Ofcourse you called me a bigot. Which flecc seems to approve of, but since I, m pointing out a couple of obvious flaws with EU he would.
And you didnt answer either points.
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