Brexit, for once some facts.

Woosh

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May 19, 2012
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It’s all about Maths,the most the ERG can muster is maximum 100,Parliament can muster 500 plus. May’s deal could include a CU and SM.....it’s probably her only way of holding onto power. It will cause massive split in the Tory party but that was what the referendum was about in the first place,I say bye bye to Rees-Mogg.
TM can't go for CU nor SM. He husband won't keep quiet.
Philip May is grassroot tory, he knows most grassroot tory would rather eat grass than accepting FOM.
 
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oyster

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Nov 7, 2017
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The implication of this article is that the 2016 referendum has now officially been tarred as unacceptable. But also, that a second referendum would require urgent legislation that has not yet (so far as we know) had a single word drafted.

Why six-figure fines? I'd argue they should be absolutely unlimited. The damage that manipulation can inflict is so gigantic that even the richest companies and individuals in the country, or the world, should feel that they could lose everything if they interfere. (At least, insofar as UK law can reach them.)

Watchdog urges tighter rules for a second EU referendum
Six-figure fines must be imposed in worst cases to deter breaches, warns Electoral Commission boss

No EU referendum should take place until the laws around the use of social media and campaign funding have been significantly tightened, Britain’s elections watchdog has warned.

Bob Posner, interim chief executive of the Electoral Commission, said that six-figure fines were needed to deter campaigners from breaching election laws – far higher than the penalties currently in place.

“We would want to extend investigative powers. We would want some serious sanctions, because that gives people confidence,” Posner told The House magazine.

“We would want much speedier reporting after the event of all the financial spending. And we’d also want more transparency during the event. We want the ability for us to actually go into campaigns and get hold of their financial information during the event.”


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/26/electoral-commission-second-eu-referendum-tighter-rules
 

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
20,339
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Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
Why six-figure fines? I'd argue they should be absolutely unlimited.
I don't think fines are enough to deter electoral malfeasance.
The law needs to treat fake news much more seriously, perpetrators punished with prison sentence, online media be treated as paper publishers so they can face the normal consequences.
 

oyster

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 7, 2017
10,422
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West West Wales
I don't think fines are enough to deter electoral malfeasance.
The law needs to treat fake news much more seriously, perpetrators punished with prison sentence, online media be treated as paper publishers so they can face the normal consequences.
I agree. Perpetrators of election/referendum manipulation should be liable to imprisonment.

Perhaps, at the end of their sentences, we should bring back banishment? After all, they have rejected the basis on which the country is supposed to operate. Why should they have any right whatsoever to remain in the country?
 

oyster

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 7, 2017
10,422
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West West Wales
What a shame. (Don't mention the extra hours many of the rest of the country might have to put in as a result of HoC failings.)

It was, of course, TM who CHOSE 29/03/2019. And enshrined it in law.

Brexit: MPs facing longer hours to help break deadlock
MPs may need to work longer and lose their February half-term break if Brexit is to be delivered on time.


The government is to consult Parliament on what extra hours will be needed to get its legislation onto the statute book before the planned 29 March exit.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47018418
 
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Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
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The implication of this article is that the 2016 referendum has now officially been tarred as unacceptable. But also, that a second referendum would require urgent legislation that has not yet (so far as we know) had a single word drafted.

Why six-figure fines? I'd argue they should be absolutely unlimited. The damage that manipulation can inflict is so gigantic that even the richest companies and individuals in the country, or the world, should feel that they could lose everything if they interfere. (At least, insofar as UK law can reach them.)

Watchdog urges tighter rules for a second EU referendum
Six-figure fines must be imposed in worst cases to deter breaches, warns Electoral Commission boss

No EU referendum should take place until the laws around the use of social media and campaign funding have been significantly tightened, Britain’s elections watchdog has warned.

Bob Posner, interim chief executive of the Electoral Commission, said that six-figure fines were needed to deter campaigners from breaching election laws – far higher than the penalties currently in place.

“We would want to extend investigative powers. We would want some serious sanctions, because that gives people confidence,” Posner told The House magazine.

“We would want much speedier reporting after the event of all the financial spending. And we’d also want more transparency during the event. We want the ability for us to actually go into campaigns and get hold of their financial information during the event.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/26/electoral-commission-second-eu-referendum-tighter-rules
Something about stable doors !!!
 

oldgroaner

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Nov 15, 2015
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Matt in the Telegraph this morning
I agree. Perpetrators of election/referendum manipulation should be liable to imprisonment.

Perhaps, at the end of their sentences, we should bring back banishment? After all, they have rejected the basis on which the country is supposed to operate. Why should they have any right whatsoever to remain in the country?
I'm sure Boris would get a warm welcome in Turkey
 
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jonathan.agnew

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Dec 27, 2018
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one thing bugs me a little about the idea that the EU makes their members vote again and again until arriving at the right result. Between the votes, the EU make changes to the treaty to win over doubters.
Does this mean that the method is anti-democratic?

I am not sure about this. Here are two scenarios:

1. Vote on leaving the EU once in 2016, follow through then a few years down the line, 2025, a new government sets up another vote to rejoin this time.

2. Vote again and again until arriving at a clear margin (like 60/40) before leaving.

Which one is more democratic?
i dont think it will take nine years after leaving before another vote comes up (things will get desperate enough sooner). One thing brexit has made abundantly clear is the limits of democracy. in an ethnically divided society one can have apparent democracy, but actual autocracy. a bit like when mohamed morsi won the election in egypt a few years back and it gave him the remit to re-institute sharia law. and the only viable alternative in a country where the electorate are this self destructive is a return to military (el-sisi).
this is becoming a worryingly appropriate analogy for the uk. i dont think we're quite ready for a military junta yet (if it werent for HOC finally taking some responsibility for representative democracy, i'd have said we were)
 

jonathan.agnew

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Dec 27, 2018
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That's already happened and still happening. To offset the sharp drop in nursing recruits from the EU since the referendum and those who have left, we've brought in large numbers from India and are still recruiting there.

So much for Brexit controlling free movement. A s you've often posted, we've never tried to control immigration, even though we've always had sufficient powers to do so.

The EU's part in this is only to be wrongly blamed.
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this is a tangent, and a quite rose tinted one,but it does bring together brexit, cycling and saving lots of money. i had quite an epiphany this am. i inherited an old bickerton in a property i bought (if that doesn't mean our paths were meant to cross i dont know what does). if you look on the www you'll see that their slagged off as being unridably wobbly; impossible to adjust after folding, in a word crap.
nothing could be further form the truth. bickerton was an aircraft engineer in ww2 who based the design on "le petit", an innovative velo pliable from just pre www. the weird handlebars mean theres no road buzz; the sit up and beg geometry makes for delightful pootling, mine weighs 9.8kgs (beautifully designed weinman brakes make it obvious this is no accident), similalr to a titanium brompton. i fond myself waving it about as i talk to someone as if its a bag of shopping. but one has to acclamitise to it to discover all of this. sartre said about "le petit" that it took him a moment to buy one and a lifetime to learn to ride (http://www.foldingcyclist.com/Le-Petit-Bi.html) . i can see where hes coming from, a bickerton has a wodnerfully addictive gentle floating ride one can experience and re-experience. But all of this requires an open mind and an unbiased orienttation to the world. which, in a nutshell, is why i dont support brexit.
 
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Fingers

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 9, 2016
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i dont think it will take nine years after leaving before another vote comes up (things will get desperate enough sooner). One thing brexit has made abundantly clear is the limits of democracy. in an ethnically divided society one can have apparent democracy, but actual autocracy. a bit like when mohamed morsi won the election in egypt a few years back and it gave him the remit to re-institute sharia law. and the only viable alternative in a country where the electorate are this self destructive is a return to military (el-sisi).
this is becoming a worryingly appropriate analogy for the uk. i dont think we're quite ready for a military junta yet (if it werent for HOC finally taking some responsibility for representative democracy, i'd have said we were)

World War 3?
 

Fingers

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 9, 2016
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this is a tangent, and a quite rose tinted one,but it does bring together brexit, cycling and saving lots of money. i had quite an epiphany this am. i inherited an old bickerton in a property i bought (if that doesn't mean our paths were meant to cross i dont know what does). if you look on the www you'll see that their slagged off as being unridably wobbly; impossible to adjust after folding, in a word crap.
nothing could be further form the truth. bickerton was an aircraft engineer in ww2 who based the design on "le petit", an innovative velo pliable from just pre www. the weird handlebars mean theres no road buzz; the sit up and beg geometry makes for delightful pootling, mine weighs 9.8kgs (beautifully designed weinman brakes make it obvious this is no accident), similalr to a titanium brompton. i fond myself waving it about as i talk to someone as if its a bag of shopping. but one has to acclamitise to it to discover all of this. sartre said about "le petit" that it took him a moment to buy one and a lifetime to learn to ride (http://www.foldingcyclist.com/Le-Petit-Bi.html) . i can see where hes coming from, a bickerton has a wodnerfully addictive gentle floating ride one can experience and re-experience. But all of this requires an open mind and an unbiased orienttation to the world. which, in a nutshell, is why i dont support brexit.

Stick to the bickerton thread.
 

50Hertz

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 2, 2019
2,199
2,403
this is a tangent, and a quite rose tinted one,but it does bring together brexit, cycling and saving lots of money. i had quite an epiphany this am. i inherited an old bickerton in a property i bought (if that doesn't mean our paths were meant to cross i dont know what does). if you look on the www you'll see that their slagged off as being unridably wobbly; impossible to adjust after folding, in a word crap.
nothing could be further form the truth. bickerton was an aircraft engineer in ww2 who based the design on "le petit", an innovative velo pliable from just pre www. the weird handlebars mean theres no road buzz; the sit up and beg geometry makes for delightful pootling, mine weighs 9.8kgs (beautifully designed weinman brakes make it obvious this is no accident), similalr to a titanium brompton. i fond myself waving it about as i talk to someone as if its a bag of shopping. but one has to acclamitise to it to discover all of this. sartre said about "le petit" that it took him a moment to buy one and a lifetime to learn to ride (http://www.foldingcyclist.com/Le-Petit-Bi.html) . i can see where hes coming from, a bickerton has a wodnerfully addictive gentle floating ride one can experience and re-experience. But all of this requires an open mind and an unbiased orienttation to the world. which, in a nutshell, is why i dont support brexit.
A Bickerton looks like something that an old lady has crocheted from the remnants of your pubic hair. Stick to the subject of the thread please, we aren't impressed by your tangent.
 
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