Brexit, for once some facts.

[Danidl]

Why would I disagree, a political party position is one of beliefs and I'm surprised you can't see that. And your use of sect is just emotive.



No, it was Blair who was revisionist, completely changing political position once having gained leadership by dishonesty.

Blair is a moderate Conservative and never was a Labour socialist. His policies such as founding the Academies, support for PPI and privatisation could never be described as Labour or socialist. He should have stood for election for the correct party.
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We must disagree on this. Whether he was a turncoat, a lier ,a pragmatist,or a con artist a huge disappointment, is not being discussed. He was endorsed by party which uses a red rose as their symbol. A symbol linked to the Labour party.
Yes, I did use the religious sect motif deliberately.and it was emotive and over the top, in order to to show that your beatification of previous Labour icons was also heading that way.
Incidentally,and it will give you no comfort, but Mr Blair is remembered more fondly here for his part in the GFA. That narrative chooses to ignore the important part that Mr Major also played at an earlier stage.

 

[Danidl]

Absolutely not so, just look at the infrastructure in the equivalent mainland European nations. Railways, roads, cyclingfacilities, airports, health service fitness for purpose, housing, welfare, all vastly superior to the shambles of what we have, and all achieved by the policy consistencies that coalitions result in.

It's our yo-yoing back and forth with first past the post that leaves us achieving nothing. One nationalises, one privatises back, one starts comprehensives, then one changes back to layered schools etc.

Running fast to stand still.
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The first time I went to Germany, in I believe 1972, and landed in Hannover, I was astonished by the quality of public services available.. cycle paths, public playgrounds, nice parks , well fed people. Logical planning of schools, sports grounds etc. Perhaps the urban renewal projects were helped by the land clearance schemes of the USAAF and the RAF.

 

[flecc]

Incidentally,and it will give you no comfort, but Mr Blair is remembered more fondly here for his part in the GFA. That narrative chooses to ignore the important part that Mr Major also played at an earlier stage.

Yes, I was aware of that and also that it was Ken Livingstone (a true Labour socialist) who opened the dialogue with Sinn Fein that Blair adopted.
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[flecc]

The first time I went to Germany, in I believe 1972, and landed in Hannover, I was astonished by the quality of public services available.. cycle paths, public playgrounds, nice parks , well fed people. Logical planning of schools, sports grounds etc. Perhaps the urban renewal projects were helped by the land clearance schemes of the USAAF and the RAF.

I was similarly astonished by the French and what they were achieving when working there in the early 1960s and later in the early 1970s, and that was all their own achievement. I also had a short period of work in Germany in early 1960s and was similarly impressed with their progress.

Some in this thread have accused me of hating the UK. I don't, but I have to say that on my return from France in the 1970s that I openly said I was ashamed of my country and many of its people. I remain very disappointed by it, and the Brexit vote has underlined my poor opinion of many of its people.
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[Fingers]

I was similarly astonished by the French and what they were achieving when working there in the early 1960s and later in the early 1970s, and that was all their own achievement. I also had a short period of work in Germany in early 1960s and was similarly impressed with their progress.

Some in this thread have accused me of hating the UK. I don't, but I have to say that on my return from France in the 1970s that I openly said I was ashamed of my country and many of its people. I remain very disappointed by it, and the Brexit vote has underlined my poor opinion of many of its people.
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Happy to disappoint you.

 

[oldgroaner]

With respect, what you are describing is a religious sect not a political party. If at the time of his selection,he was endorsed by the majority of the party, he was defacto their party leader. What you are doing now is revisionism

Changing the Party name is Revisionism and that is what was done

 

[oldgroaner]

The first time I went to Germany, in I believe 1972, and landed in Hannover, I was astonished by the quality of public services available.. cycle paths, public playgrounds, nice parks , well fed people. Logical planning of schools, sports grounds etc. Perhaps the urban renewal projects were helped by the land clearance schemes of the USAAF and the RAF.

In Hull we also had our town planning done by Foreign experts

 

[flecc]

In Hull we also had our town planning done by experts

Twice wasn't it? In the 1940s by German munitions experts and for 2017 by British experts naming it a city of culture.
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[oldgroaner]

Twice wasn't it? In the 1940s by German munitions experts and for 2017 by British experts naming it a city of culture.
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Make that three times, we had visits from Zeppelins and Gothas in the First world war, too!

I remember two comments at the time of "The City of Culture"

"If Hull is the City of Culture, Baghdad is the city of peace"
And also
"If I wanted culture, i'd eat a Yoghurt"

 

[Woosh]

"If I wanted culture, i'd eat a Yoghurt"

I just did!
after brexit, I may have to make my own. Oh joy!

 

[oyster]

I just did!
after brexit, I may have to make my own. Oh joy!

We are switching over to at least adding whatever we want to yogurt, albeit ready made, and avoiding the crazily high levels of sugar so many flavoured yogurts have.

I first made my own yogurt in around 1967 but it is difficult to persuade myself that it is worth the effort when the best commercial plain yogurt is pretty good.

 

[Zlatan]

Why would I disagree, a political party position is one of beliefs and I'm surprised you can't see that. And your use of sect is just emotive.



No, it was Blair who was revisionist, completely changing political position once having gained leadership by dishonesty.

Blair is a moderate Conservative and never was a Labour socialist. His policies such as founding the Academies, support for PPI and privatisation could never be described as Labour or socialist. He should have stood for election for the correct party.
.

https://mol.im/a/6589561

What Blair was or indeed is is totally irrelevant. As I keep having to repeat he was elected to power by Labour MPs, Union leaders and socialist societies on his well publicised policies. For 13 years he was Labour figurehead, leader and policy maker.
Anyone saying he was not labour is completely missing the point. A party must be capable of change, yes Blair perhaps went to far but attaching a party to a particular doctrine for ever is part of the reason DM can print such as above.
One day perhaps Tories will bring in social reform, a fairer distribution of wealth and any other policies currently viewed as "labour",but since they have ben put in place by tory mechanics, with tory voters they would be called tories.
Yes, perhaps Blair displayed Tory doctrines and held Tory beliefs (afterall Cameron held Blair in high regard) but whichever way you examine it he was Labour leader. Perhaps Labour lost its way, perhaps they were mesmorised by Blair's oratory skills. Who knows. He was Labour leader.

 

[flecc]

I just did!
after brexit, I may have to make my own. Oh joy!

I first made my own yogurt in around 1967 but it is difficult to persuade myself that it is worth the effort when the best commercial plain yogurt is pretty good.

I remain to be convinced about yoghurt. Apart from some real Greek yoghurt when it was actually made correctly in Greece, I've never bothered with it. After a poor early start in life, 40 years of very heavy smoking in mid life and with 82 years gone and another decade or so looking increasingly in prospect, I seem to be doing just fine without it.

Yoghurt undoubtedly has benefits for the likes of Müller, Danone and the advertising industry, but not so sure about the individual.
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[Zlatan]

https://theconversation.com/new-labour-20-years-on-assessing-the-legacy-of-the-tony-blair-years-76884

Worth a read.

Seems to me we can either have what flecc views as real labour in opposition or a popular labour in power.
Yoghurt, oats and fruit everymorning for me... Have made my own but not organised enough.. Easier to buy it...Always natural unflavoured unsweetened tho. Love it with maple syrup...which sort of negates tje unsweetened....

 

[flecc]

he was elected to power by Labour MPs, Union leaders and socialist societies on his well publicised policies. For 13 years he was Labour figurehead, leader and policy maker.

And now they realise they were conned, Blair and New Labour are finished.

Blair was politically a moderate Conservative.

Blair's policies were Conservative. He was opposed to most socialist policies

New Labour's policies were his Conservative ones.

He blocked socialist Labour MPs from office and always regarded them as opposition within.

As PM he only ever represented New Labour which he created, never Labour, who as shown he opposed.

Ergo both Blair in power and New Labour were never Labour, always predominantly Conservative. Those are the facts and it is irrational to believe otherwise on the basis of what they or anyone else claimed to be the position.

To argue otherwise is like saying our cold war traitors were patriots because it was believed they were, or saying the priests who sexually assaulted children were saintly Christians because it was believed they were.

I prefer the realities of the factually shown truth.
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[Zlatan]

And now they realise they were conned, Blair and New Labour are finished.

Blair was politically a moderate Conservative.

Blair's policies were Conservative. He was opposed to most socialist policies

New Labour's policies were his Conservative ones.

He blocked socialist Labour MPs from office and always regarded them as opposition within.

As PM he only ever represented New Labour which he created, never Labour, who as shown he opposed.

Ergo both Blair in power and New Labour were never Labour, always predominantly Conservative. Those are the facts and it is irrational to believe otherwise on the basis of what they or anyone else claimed to be the position.

To argue otherwise is like saying our cold war traitors were patriots because it was believed they were, or saying the priests who sexually assaulted children were saintly Christians because it was believed they were.

I prefer the realities of the factually shown truth.
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Its a good argument but wrong.
Your anology with (as you call them priests) Irrespective of their behaviour even when way outside those of any christian, they were still priests. (your word)
Irrespective of his policies or beliefs Blair was Labour leader. I, ve already said his personal beliefs are irrelevant. Its where he is and who put him there deciding he was Labour leader.
Its the dogma you are attaching to labour policies justifying your belief he was somehow not labour. The distinction between tory and labour policy is at best blurred. What is not blurred at all is who voted for Blair. Or are you also saying every labour MP , labour voter, unionist (as in union leaders) who voted for Blair in 1997 is also Tory...???
You can have last word on this flecc. I, m sure you will.
You do have a religous aspect to your belief in Labour as indicated by your choice of analogy. You have also introduced subjectivesness. Good Christians. Perhaps he wasnt a good ole Labour boy by your dogma.

 

[oyster]

I remain to be convinced about yoghurt. Apart from some real Greek yoghurt when it was actually made correctly in Greece, I've never bothered with it. After a poor early start in life, 40 years of very heavy smoking in mid life and with 82 years gone and another decade or so looking increasingly in prospect, I seem to be doing just fine without it.

Yoghurt undoubtedly has benefits for the likes of Müller, Danone and the advertising industry, but not so sure about the individual.
.

Müller, Danone, etc., can go get stuffed! Far too much low-fat, high-sugar stuff.

This evening's delight was Lidl frozen raspberries (75g) plus Lidl Greek-style full fat yogurt (250g) whizzed for a few seconds.

I feel highly cultured.

 

[flecc]

What is not blurred at all is who voted for Blair. Or are you also saying every labour MP , labour voter, unionist (as in union leaders) who voted for Blair in 1997 is also Tory...???

As I've repeatedly said, they were conned.

Now they no longer are conned and New Labour no longer exists as a result of their realising the truth. Showing they agree that Blair and New Labour were not Labour.
.

 

[flecc]

This evening's delight was Lidl frozen raspberries (75g) plus Lidl Greek-style full fat yogurt (250g) whizzed for a few seconds.

Mine a smoked salmon sandwich in wholemeal bread that I put together.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

The Daily Mail has "Gone for Broke" this morning
"Now do your Duty!
"If MPs back May's Brexit deal, we can leave the EU, unite the country and end the political paralysis holding Britain back. That's why the Daily Mail urges them to honour the result of the referendum – and demands they put our country first

As predicted fear has always worked for the Tory's in the past,I wonder where the notion this would "Unite the country" came from?
And what "country" she means?