Brexit, for once some facts.

[Danidl]

Great piece on the self pity and the seemingly bottomless pit of grievance that emanates from the Republic of Ireland

Britain will discover that nationalist Ireland will never be its friend

During our honeymoon in Cuba, my wife and I spent a few days in a beach resort, where we endured an excruciating encounter at a meal organised for the hotel’s British guests. As we chatted to a couple from the home counties, the husband embarked on a rambling monologue about the relative merits of people from the Republic of Ireland as against those from Northern Ireland.
The southern Irish, he theorised, are warm, friendly and fun, while the Northern Irish are dour, humourless and aggressive. He concluded his lecture by asking, “so, which part of Ireland are you from?”, as his wife’s face reflected the dawning realisation that her dinner companions were two of the cold, grim, hard-eyed breed of Irish.
I mention this incident, chiefly because it illustrates an affection for the Republic of Ireland that is peculiarly English and rests on a naive assumption that these friendly intentions are reciprocated. It’s easy to understand why this misunderstanding might arise, thanks to the genial blarney that Brits experience on their Irish hols.
Yet, to the British in Northern Ireland, it shows startling ignorance of the brooding grievances that nationalist Ireland continues to nurture toward Britain, and England in particular. The cloying self-pity that blames English imperialism for every problem the country has ever suffered, past and present. The morose oppression complex that led more self-aware Irish commentators to bestow upon their countrymen the tongue-in-cheek acronym MOPE, or Most Oppressed People Ever.
For this reason, the extent of hostility to Brexit from nationalists in Ireland, both north and south of the border, wrong-footed many observers in Britain. It was inevitable that there would be serious concerns about the possible impact on the Republic’s economy. And a degree of hurt, that a neighbour wanted to go its separate way, was understandable.
Perhaps less expected, was the sheer intensity of Ireland’s contempt for the UK’s sovereign right to make a decision on the future of its territory. Then there was the audacity of Leo Varadkar’s plot to hive Northern Ireland off from mainland Britain, by campaigning for an internal UK border down the Irish Sea: an act of aggression that has brought us to the brink of a ‘no-deal’ Brexit that would damage the taoiseach’s country most of all.
Time after time during the negotiations, British good faith has been met with Irish hostility and scarcely a voice in the Republic has been raised in protest or concern. In his piece for TheArticle, Jason Walsh suggests that political rather than economic factors explain Dublin’s uncompromising attitude to Brexit. Broadly, I agree with that thesis. Unionists are appalled by the ‘backstop’ precisely because they know it is more to do with the conceit that Ireland is a single nation than protecting the comparatively small volume of trade that crosses the border.
Varadkar’s Fine Gael government almost certainly has no intention of trying to absorb Northern Ireland into a 32-county Irish state, in the foreseeable future. The financial and social costs for the Republic of Ireland would be far too high. The party might be less aggressive traditionally toward London than its rival, Fianna Fail, but it shares nationalist assumptions that Northern Ireland is not genuinely British and that UK authority there should be curtailed.
Varadkar and his ambitious deputy, Simon Coveney, have promoted a form of all-island nationalism that seeks increasing influence over the province without risking genuine responsibility or the cost of paying the bills. It’s a strategy that encapsulates very neatly the latent, passive-aggressive anti-British sentiment in the Republic that Brexit has exposed. Why not move the colonists’ artificial border to the Irish Sea and force closer political and economic integration between north and south, so long as Northern Ireland remains Westminster’s problem ultimately?
Irish separatists and the Dublin government like to make hazy allusions to the Good Friday Agreement, in order to attack the idea that Ulster can leave the EU on the same terms as the rest of the UK. They never quote any of the deal’s actual contents and they ignore blithely its central tenet, by which the signatories recognise “the legitimacy of whatever choice is freely exercised by a majority of the people of Northern Ireland with regard to its status.”
This is the first of several sections of the document that set out the ‘principle of consent’ and the text goes on to explain that the province’s “status as part of the United Kingdom reflects and relies upon that wish”.
Rather than abide by this principle, nationalist Ireland chose instead to delude itself that the Agreement diluted British power in Ulster and made the border go away. Jason says that “Irish people are well aware of the fact that there are two states in Ireland”, but often their government acts as if it exercises joint authority over Northern Ireland.
Unionists have long wrestled with nationalism’s failure to accept that Northern Ireland’s constitutional status has consequences. If Brexit exploded the lies that nationalists told themselves about the border and UK sovereignty, that should have remained their psychological problem to work through. Instead, the British government is attempting to divide up the United Kingdom with an internal economic border, in a craven attempt to mollify and appease Dublin.

https://www.thearticle.com/britain-will-discover-that-nationalist-ireland-will-never-be-its-friend/

An interesting set of opinions, ...It might have helped had you inserted quotation marks at rhe start... I was starting to wonder how your honeymoon was going in Cuba . It does however ignore two salient facts. 1. The GFA was predicated on the assumption that both UK and Ireland were both EU members. And 2. That the NI people strongly voted in favour of remaining in the EU...so rather than itnoring their wishes, Southern b sentiment is to fully appreciate the rights of the majority in NI.

 

[Fingers]

Not the only thing they've just got wrong today.

Strange they've ignored the YouGov poll that produced 59/41 in favour of Remain, a handsome 18% margin. A bit better than the measly under 4% that Leave got in the referendum.
.

People consistently vote for a return of the death penalty.

It’s about as pointless.

 

[Fingers]

An interesting set of opinions, ...It might have helped had you inserted quotation marks at rhe start... I was starting to wonder how your honeymoon was going in Cuba . It does however ignore two salient facts. 1. The GFA was predicated on the assumption that both UK and Ireland were both EU members. And 2. That the NI people strongly voted in favour of remaining in the EU...so rather than itnoring their wishes, Southern b sentiment is to fully appreciate the rights of the majority in NI.

How benevolent and thoughtful of the Irish government!

Amazing. How could we have been so suspicious of their actions?

 

[flecc]

People consistently vote for a return of the death penalty.

It’s about as pointless.

Ah, so we should scrap the equally pointless referendum vote?

Seriously, opinions change with time and information. The now much better informed public have changed their mind as poll after poll shows, the margin continuously growing and now very substantial.

Parliament cannot solve the riddle the public set them, so logically it's time to go back to the public with the options for their answer.
.

 

[Wicky]

6.58pm - she's still stubbornly going on about her deal as the best thing since white bread - though she's looking very pale (like a rehash of Elizabeth 1) , hoarse and with the bags underneath her eyes looking like saddle bags full to overflowing . She robotically tried her best but put her out to pasture ASAP after 2 & half years of futile wasted time and money.

 

[oldgroaner]

Great piece on the self pity and the seemingly bottomless pit of grievance that emanates from the Republic of Ireland

Britain will discover that nationalist Ireland will never be its friend

During our honeymoon in Cuba, my wife and I spent a few days in a beach resort, where we endured an excruciating encounter at a meal organised for the hotel’s British guests. As we chatted to a couple from the home counties, the husband embarked on a rambling monologue about the relative merits of people from the Republic of Ireland as against those from Northern Ireland.
The southern Irish, he theorised, are warm, friendly and fun, while the Northern Irish are dour, humourless and aggressive. He concluded his lecture by asking, “so, which part of Ireland are you from?”, as his wife’s face reflected the dawning realisation that her dinner companions were two of the cold, grim, hard-eyed breed of Irish.
I mention this incident, chiefly because it illustrates an affection for the Republic of Ireland that is peculiarly English and rests on a naive assumption that these friendly intentions are reciprocated. It’s easy to understand why this misunderstanding might arise, thanks to the genial blarney that Brits experience on their Irish hols.
Yet, to the British in Northern Ireland, it shows startling ignorance of the brooding grievances that nationalist Ireland continues to nurture toward Britain, and England in particular. The cloying self-pity that blames English imperialism for every problem the country has ever suffered, past and present. The morose oppression complex that led more self-aware Irish commentators to bestow upon their countrymen the tongue-in-cheek acronym MOPE, or Most Oppressed People Ever.
For this reason, the extent of hostility to Brexit from nationalists in Ireland, both north and south of the border, wrong-footed many observers in Britain. It was inevitable that there would be serious concerns about the possible impact on the Republic’s economy. And a degree of hurt, that a neighbour wanted to go its separate way, was understandable.
Perhaps less expected, was the sheer intensity of Ireland’s contempt for the UK’s sovereign right to make a decision on the future of its territory. Then there was the audacity of Leo Varadkar’s plot to hive Northern Ireland off from mainland Britain, by campaigning for an internal UK border down the Irish Sea: an act of aggression that has brought us to the brink of a ‘no-deal’ Brexit that would damage the taoiseach’s country most of all.
Time after time during the negotiations, British good faith has been met with Irish hostility and scarcely a voice in the Republic has been raised in protest or concern. In his piece for TheArticle, Jason Walsh suggests that political rather than economic factors explain Dublin’s uncompromising attitude to Brexit. Broadly, I agree with that thesis. Unionists are appalled by the ‘backstop’ precisely because they know it is more to do with the conceit that Ireland is a single nation than protecting the comparatively small volume of trade that crosses the border.
Varadkar’s Fine Gael government almost certainly has no intention of trying to absorb Northern Ireland into a 32-county Irish state, in the foreseeable future. The financial and social costs for the Republic of Ireland would be far too high. The party might be less aggressive traditionally toward London than its rival, Fianna Fail, but it shares nationalist assumptions that Northern Ireland is not genuinely British and that UK authority there should be curtailed.
Varadkar and his ambitious deputy, Simon Coveney, have promoted a form of all-island nationalism that seeks increasing influence over the province without risking genuine responsibility or the cost of paying the bills. It’s a strategy that encapsulates very neatly the latent, passive-aggressive anti-British sentiment in the Republic that Brexit has exposed. Why not move the colonists’ artificial border to the Irish Sea and force closer political and economic integration between north and south, so long as Northern Ireland remains Westminster’s problem ultimately?
Irish separatists and the Dublin government like to make hazy allusions to the Good Friday Agreement, in order to attack the idea that Ulster can leave the EU on the same terms as the rest of the UK. They never quote any of the deal’s actual contents and they ignore blithely its central tenet, by which the signatories recognise “the legitimacy of whatever choice is freely exercised by a majority of the people of Northern Ireland with regard to its status.”
This is the first of several sections of the document that set out the ‘principle of consent’ and the text goes on to explain that the province’s “status as part of the United Kingdom reflects and relies upon that wish”.
Rather than abide by this principle, nationalist Ireland chose instead to delude itself that the Agreement diluted British power in Ulster and made the border go away. Jason says that “Irish people are well aware of the fact that there are two states in Ireland”, but often their government acts as if it exercises joint authority over Northern Ireland.
Unionists have long wrestled with nationalism’s failure to accept that Northern Ireland’s constitutional status has consequences. If Brexit exploded the lies that nationalists told themselves about the border and UK sovereignty, that should have remained their psychological problem to work through. Instead, the British government is attempting to divide up the United Kingdom with an internal economic border, in a craven attempt to mollify and appease Dublin.

https://www.thearticle.com/britain-will-discover-that-nationalist-ireland-will-never-be-its-friend/

Sponsored by Janus Henderson Investors, another loony right wing outfit. Right up your steet with Tropes like this Tommie
You fall for it every time

 

[Fingers]

Ah, so we should scrap the equally pointless referendum vote?

Seriously, opinions change with time and information. The now much better informed public have changed their mind as poll after poll shows, the margin continuously growing and now very substantial.

Parliament cannot solve the riddle the public set them, so logically it's time to go back to the public with the options for their answer.
.

It will unleash generations of strife.

No one will ever trust anything a politician says or proposes anymore. And I don’t mean like now where they are mistrusted and hated on an equal scale thanks to various malpractices such as nepotism and fiddling expenses.

This would be revolt on a major scale. It would take two or three elections to clear out the stench of this fraud of the public.

Be careful what you wish for flecc. This would paralyse uk politics for decades. It would make a wto Brexit a walk in the park.

 

[flecc]

It will unleash generations of strife.

No one will ever trust anything a politician says or proposes anymore. And I don’t mean like now where they are mistrusted and hated on an equal scale thanks to various malpractices such as nepotism and fiddling expenses.

This would be revolt on a major scale. It would take two or three elections to clear out the stench of this fraud of the public.

Be careful what you wish for flecc. This would paralyse uk politics for decades. It would make a wto Brexit a walk in the park.

I can't agree. How can the will of the public only apply at one moment in time?

As long as the governmennt do what the public want, it will be grudgingly accepted. After all, another referendum would equally give Leavers a chance to affirm their wish, perhaps enlarging their majority. How is that unfair?
.

 

[Wicky]

BBC Live - Politics Live - Farage being a twat and coming out with twaddle

 

[Wicky]

She's not wearing her chunky power jewellery hence she lost big time....

 

[flecc]

May's Deal rejected 432 to 202
.

 

[oyster]

19:40
'Biggest defeat in modern times'
BBC political correspondent tweets...

In Modern Times - didn't the main character get sent to a mental hospital?

​

 

[oyster]

She's not wearing her chunky power jewellery hence she lost big time....

I thought she was ready for anything the other day - through slightly out-of-focus eyes, looked like she was wearing a chain-maille top.

 

[Wicky]

Farage must have fallen off his chair and / or was replaced by an imposter after the result was announced as there was no smug beer swilling grin in sight.

 

[Wicky]

I thought she was ready for anything the other day - through slightly out-of-focus eyes, looked like she was wearing a chain-maille top.

Will the 1922 appointed power collar look just as good on Boris or whover has a go?

Larry's mate?

 

[oldgroaner]

t
They are really pushing the boat on on Channel Five as well, there are apparently no remainers to be found anywhere!
All perfectly even handed of course
Just get on with it! is the universal cry...

There is a perfect deal yet noboby wants it: Cancel Brexit.
History will look back on this as the year the Nation went completely bonkers, trying to get the second best deal and sell it as a bargain.

 

[Wicky]

Boris stinking of desperation that May's defeat equals a win for her to win over concessions from EU

 

[oldgroaner]

Watching the interviews on TV one thing is clear
Not a single member of parliament has a clue what to do next

Now they are expecting Mrs May to go round and talk to people?
Was ever any nation so afflicted by it's rulers as we are?

 

[tommie]

AYES: 202

NOES: 432

​

 

[Fingers]

I can't agree. How can the will of the public only apply at one moment in time?

As long as the governmennt do what the public want, it will be grudgingly accepted. After all, another referendum would equally give Leavers a chance to affirm their wish, perhaps enlarging their majority. How is that unfair?
.

No it wouldn’t.

It’s not how it works. You can’t keep having referendums or elections till you get what you want.

Even if remain won this doesn’t go away. And it needs to go away or we really will become a laughing stock.

Leave the EU or destroy our Union. A real union. Because a second referendum will mean one for Scotland and for N.I.

I know that’s what you want. You would destroy the UK to remain part of the EU and that’s why I can’t take you seriously.

Another 6 years of nonsense not to mention real change. And I mean real change not just a blue passport change. It would be a civil war without guns. Just because you lost a vote.