Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

Why you can’t accept Blair was as Labour as Clement Attlee is bewildering.

That proposition is just bonkers! If Blair had been like Attlee he'd have had leftist ministers like Aneurin Bevan in his cabinet.

i.e. Corbyn and McDonnell .

And he'd have been re-nationalising rail and water instead of privatising as he did.
.

 

[Fingers]

That proposition is just bonkers! If Blair had been like Attlee he'd have had leftist ministers like Aneurin Bevan in his cabinet.

i.e. Corbyn and McDonnell .

And he'd have been re-nationalising rail and water instead of privatising as he did.
.

You’re missing the point and it has to be in purpose.

I’m leaving this one here. You know what I’m saying and you also know I’m right.

 

[Zlatan]

That proposition is just bonkers! If Blair had been like Attlee he'd have had leftist ministers like Aneurin Bevan in his cabinet.

i.e. Corbyn and McDonnell .

And he'd have been re-nationalising rail and water instead of privatising as he did.
.

He didnt say he was like Attlee. He said they were both Labour,which obviously they were.
Got to admire you stubborn eccentricity.

 

[Zlatan]

And, any party should put forward policies and principles most likely to gain support. Its a fundamental concept of how our democracy works. Voters should not have to bend to accomodate dogma within any party. Its exactly what JC shpuld bedoing now. Representing as many voters as possible, not sticking to some outdated philosphy to be foistered on electorate if he falls into power by circumsrance.

 

[flecc]

He didnt say he was like Attlee. He said they were both Labour,which obviously they were.

No, he said Blair was as Labour as Attlee, an utterly ridiculous proposition. They were poles apart in every political respect.
.

 

[Woosh]

And, any party should put forward policies and principles most likely to gain support.

I like some of JC's policies but to pay for them, he intends to confiscate 10% of the issued shares of the largest companies.
That's not going to be doable. It's like we get to keep £39 billions and the EU is going to give us an FTA.

 

[flecc]

And, any party should put forward policies and principles most likely to gain support. Its a fundamental concept of how our democracy works. Voters should not have to bend to accomodate dogma within any party. Its exactly what JC shpuld bedoing now. Representing as many voters as possible, not sticking to some outdated philosphy to be foistered on electorate if he falls into power by circumsrance.

Also ridiculous statements. Parties are formed to represent political positions for those in agreement to vote for them.

For one on the left to just abandon those it represented and change to the right to get other parties votes is simply dishonesty.

If a party such as JC's true Labour cannot get elected, so be it, let it wither and die. Many have gone that way in the past.

If there is more need for centrist parties they should form independently. It's already happened in the example given, four centrist not true Labour members leaving and forming the Social Democrats, an honest and honourable action which was fully respected by all parties and the wider public. Then evolving through SDLP, SDP and on to merger they became today's LibDems.

That can happen again if the demand is there, and it may well now since both today's Tories and Labour are so divided they may each split, forming four parties. Two of them would be centrist, plus on the extremes one left and one right.

That would more fairly represent all public opinions and lead to coalitions having wider appeal. It might even at last get us proportional representation.

That would really be a success due to Brexit
.

 

[Woosh]

That can happen again if the demand is there, and it may well now since both today's Tories and Labour are so divided they may each split, forming four parties. Two of them would be centrist, plus on the extremes one left and one right.

I would be very happy if that happens.

 

[tommie]

It might even at last get us proportional representation..

Why do you want PR ?

 

[flecc]

Why do you want PR ?

It better represents all opinion in the sense that all shades of bias are represented within the vote. That in turn eases the path to coalitions with wider appeal, helping to avoid the right-left yo-yo extremes that our general elections suffer from.

That in turn facilitates policy continuation and real progressive advancement instead of reversals to stand still and get nowhere but stagnation.
.

 

[jonathan.agnew]

And, any party should put forward policies and principles most likely to gain support. Its a fundamental concept of how our democracy works. Voters should not have to bend to accomodate dogma within any party. Its exactly what JC shpuld bedoing now. Representing as many voters as possible, not sticking to some outdated philosphy to be foistered on electorate if he falls into power by circumsrance.

Somehow a completely unprincipled politics run on the basis of market research and focus groups has about as much appeal as the lack of thinking behind brexit. I can, however, completely appreciate that leave voters could feel drawn to this kind of intellectual vacuum.

 

[Zlatan]

It better represents all opinion in the sense that all shades of bias are represented within the vote. That in turn eases the path to coalitions with wider appeal, helping to avoid the right-left yo-yo extremes that our general elections suffer from.

That in turn facilitates policy continuation and real progressive advancement instead of reversals to stand still and get nowhere but stagnation.
.

It can lead to indecisive and frequently changed policies, governments and directions. Italy springs to mind..

 

[Danidl]

Completely wrong.

A political party is defined by its policies and New Labour's policies were not Labour policies.

Labour policies from those of its founder Keir Hardie were always left wing socialism. New Labour's policies under its founder Blair were right of middle, so much so that they were often called Tory.

The members were conned into choosing Blair by his ill defined definition of New Labour, but having now woken up have ditched New Labour and returned to their origins.
.

With respect, what you are describing is a religious sect not a political party. If at the time of his selection,he was endorsed by the majority of the party, he was defacto their party leader. What you are doing now is revisionism

 

[Zlatan]

Somehow a completely unprincipled politics run on the basis of market research and focus groups has about as much appeal as the lack of thinking behind brexit. I can, however, completely appreciate that leave voters could feel drawn to this kind of intellectual vacuum.

You would obviously prefer a dictatorship...?? Well obvious I suppose. Stalin I, d guess rather than Hitler..

 

[oldgroaner]

are you not fed up with everyone accuses all their opponents with corruption?

I am fed up with the fact that corruption is everywhere in politics

 

[flecc]

With respect, what you are describing is a religious sect not a political party.

Why would I disagree, a political party position is one of beliefs and I'm surprised you can't see that. And your use of sect is just emotive.

If at the time of his selection,he was endorsed by the majority of the party, he was defacto their party leader. What you are doing now is revisionism

No, it was Blair who was revisionist, completely changing political position once having gained leadership by dishonesty.

Blair is a moderate Conservative and never was a Labour socialist. His policies such as founding the Academies, support for PPI and privatisation could never be described as Labour or socialist. He should have stood for election for the correct party.
.

 

[flecc]

It can lead to indecisive and frequently changed policies, governments and directions. Italy springs to mind..

Absolutely not so, just look at the infrastructure in the equivalent mainland European nations. Railways, roads, cyclingfacilities, airports, health service fitness for purpose, housing, welfare, all vastly superior to the shambles of what we have, and all achieved by the policy consistencies that coalitions result in.

It's our yo-yoing back and forth with first past the post that leaves us achieving nothing. One nationalises, one privatises back, one starts comprehensives, then one changes back to layered schools etc.

Running fast to stand still.
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[tommie]

The End is Nigh​

AFD votes for possible German exit from EU

The Eurosceptic, anti-mass migration Alternative for Germany (AFD) has agreed that it may campaign for an exit from the European Union unless significant changes take place.

Party delegates made the decision at the AFD’s congress on Sunday, with the party putting a possible ‘Dexit’ on the table ahead of the European Elections in May.

A draft manifesto agreed by delegates requires a reshaping of the bloc “in an appropriate timeframe” or Germany must leave, according to their draft manifesto.

The party want to see the European Parliament abolished and insist that “we see nation states as having the exclusive competence to make laws”.

Addressing Brexit directly, AFD Co-Leader Alexander Gauland said: “When the British leave the EU, they restore a geopolitical state that is more normal in the history of our continent.”

A projection by Europe Elects would see the AFD as the third biggest party in terms of MEPs in the EU Parliament.

Germany, Europe Elects projection:
'If there was European election today…'
Number of Seats (MEPs)
CDU-EPP: 24 (-5)
GRÜNE-G/EFA: 19 (+8)
AfD-EFDD: 15 (+14)
SPD-S&D: 14 (-13)
LINKE-LEFT: 8 (+1)
FDP-ALDE: 8 (+5)
CSU-EPP: 5
FW-ALDE: 1
TIER-LEFT: 1 (+1)
PARTEI-NI: 1#EP2019
— Europe Elects (@EuropeElects) January 12, 2019
​

To see a major German party openly discuss leaving the European Union shows you just how quickly European politics is changing.

 

[flecc]

The End is Nigh
To see a major German party openly discuss leaving the European Union shows you just how quickly European politics is changing.

They're a joke, the AFD has been talking about this for ages, they'll have to get elected first.

The EU will outlive every contributor to this thread, and probably have a united Ireland as a member eventually.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

The End is Nigh​

AFD votes for possible German exit from EU

The Eurosceptic, anti-mass migration Alternative for Germany (AFD) has agreed that it may campaign for an exit from the European Union unless significant changes take place.

Party delegates made the decision at the AFD’s congress on Sunday, with the party putting a possible ‘Dexit’ on the table ahead of the European Elections in May.

A draft manifesto agreed by delegates requires a reshaping of the bloc “in an appropriate timeframe” or Germany must leave, according to their draft manifesto.

The party want to see the European Parliament abolished and insist that “we see nation states as having the exclusive competence to make laws”.

Addressing Brexit directly, AFD Co-Leader Alexander Gauland said: “When the British leave the EU, they restore a geopolitical state that is more normal in the history of our continent.”

A projection by Europe Elects would see the AFD as the third biggest party in terms of MEPs in the EU Parliament.

Germany, Europe Elects projection:
'If there was European election today…'
Number of Seats (MEPs)
CDU-EPP: 24 (-5)
GRÜNE-G/EFA: 19 (+8)
AfD-EFDD: 15 (+14)
SPD-S&D: 14 (-13)
LINKE-LEFT: 8 (+1)
FDP-ALDE: 8 (+5)
CSU-EPP: 5
FW-ALDE: 1
TIER-LEFT: 1 (+1)
PARTEI-NI: 1#EP2019
— Europe Elects (@EuropeElects) January 12, 2019
​

To see a major German party openly discuss leaving the European Union shows you just how quickly European politics is changing.

Very amusing, but silly