Brexit, for once some facts.

Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
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The Tories have had 2 plus years to come up with a good deal to satisfy Leave and convince Remain that leaving is a good idea.
To my mind they have achieved neither,therefore May's deal should not appear on the ballot paper of a second referendum.
Leavers seem quite happy to Leave with no deal.
So the vote should be a straight choice between Remain and Leave,just as the original vote. If Leave wins I think most Remainers would say that the vote was now based upon real info and would accept the result. If Remain wins then Leavers should accept similarly.
I think that if we leave on March 29 it will force the EU and UK to rapidly put their heads together and some contingency plan or extension will evolve to avoid the cliff edge,this has to be better than May's current useless plan.
KudosDave
 

Fingers

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 9, 2016
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I now you just want to clown around but really

"'Let's fund our NHS instead' is a suggestion not a pledge."
Then it wasn't worth paying to put in on a bus was it?
you really are destitute of an argument in favour of Brexit coming out with corny excuses like that.
Tell me why did Farage say "It was a mistake for leave to say that?"

Farage said the picture of the immigrants trailing away into the distance was a mistake.

Please stick to the facts.

Thank you.
 

Fingers

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Boris Johnson was the official leader of the Leave campaign, a member of the Tory party and approved by the Tory government in that role.

He not only promised a fictitious £350 millions for the NHS but has continued to defend that statement ever since, despite it having no basis in fact.

Ergo it was a Leave promise that Brext would have that result, which of course hasn't materialised. Instead the proposed deal is us continuing to pay billions into the EU for many years.

That's the facts and OG listed them all perfectly, clearly illustrating what a disaster Brexit already is.
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It was a suggestion. Not policy.
 

tillson

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Please explain the circumstances under which it will be untrue. You are more conversant with aviation matters than I . But is it not the case that landing rights and taking off rights are local state matters,and in the case of say Germany and regional airports this is the local federal land . The UK as a member state had negotiated these and competition law between member states gave them equal rights. Without a deal these rights disappear.
Have these airlines negotiated alternative insurance cover?.
Is it not also the case that commercial aviation requires that all flights need a licence to take off,from the flight control authority. Who can issue that on 30th March. ?.
I am not saying or implying that all aviation to and from UK to the rest of the world will cease..there are UN moderated international agreements eg IATA etc. Overflying of EU terrotories being unaffected.But regional traffic between UK and EU member states will be adversely affected. Ryanair put the UK on notice some 18 months ago.
Crew licensing, maintenance & airworthiness will be virtually unaffected. Nearly all of the aforementioned is based on the old U.K. CAA system anyway and has been adopted by EASA, who have made more expensive and slightly less affective. Aircraft Insurance will just continue as it is.

The commercial aspects will require a few tweaks no doubt, but nothing major. Routes and movements are in place, the airlines want to fly into and out of the U.K. so a strong will to continue exists, so I expect it will do so.

To say that planes will not take off from UK airports to EU destinations is wrong.
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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Farage said the picture of the immigrants trailing away into the distance was a mistake.

Please stick to the facts.
No, you stick to the facts:

"Nigel Farage has admitted that it was a "mistake" to promise that £350million a week would be spent on the NHS if the UK backed a Brexit vote.

Speaking just an hour after the Leave vote was confirmed the Ukip leader said the money could not be guaranteed and claimed he would never have made the promise in the first place."

in this link
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flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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It was a suggestion. Not policy.
No, see my link above where Johnson made it a pledge.

That's a synonym of promise of course, and the word promise is also used by the Leave campaigners in that link.
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oldgroaner

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Farage said the picture of the immigrants trailing away into the distance was a mistake.

Please stick to the facts.

Thank you.
Wrong again as usual

And also
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/nigel-farage-350-million-pledge-to-fund-the-nhs-was-a-mistake/

Nigel Farage: £350 million pledge to fund the NHS was 'a mistake'

Nigel Farage has admitted that it was a "mistake" to promise that £350million a week would be spent on the NHS if the UK backed a Brexit vote.

Speaking just an hour after the Leave vote was confirmed the Ukip leader said the money could not be guaranteed and claimed he would never have made the promise in the first place.

Tommy I suggest that possibly for the first time, you check before posting your nonsense, you look foolish enough already
 
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Danidl

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Crew licensing, maintenance & airworthiness will be virtually unaffected. Nearly all of the aforementioned is based on the old U.K. CAA system anyway and has been adopted by EASA, who have made more expensive and slightly less affective. Aircraft Insurance will just continue as it is.

The commercial aspects will require a few tweaks no doubt, but nothing major. Routes and movements are in place, the airlines want to fly into and out of the U.K. so a strong will to continue exists, so I expect it will do so.

To say that planes will not take off from UK airports to EU destinations is wrong.
Perhaps you might read the attached... . Which while high on aspiration, is limited in facts...
https://info.caa.co.uk/eu-exit/
 
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oldgroaner

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Farage said the picture of the immigrants trailing away into the distance was a mistake.

Please stick to the facts.

Thank you.
The mistake was his to stand in front of it and use it as propaganda, that only an idiot would fall for
 
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Fingers

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No, you stick to the facts:

"Nigel Farage has admitted that it was a "mistake" to promise that £350million a week would be spent on the NHS if the UK backed a Brexit vote.

Speaking just an hour after the Leave vote was confirmed the Ukip leader said the money could not be guaranteed and claimed he would never have made the promise in the first place."

in this link
.

I tend to tune him out tbh
 
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Fingers

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No, see my link above where Johnson made it a pledge.

That's a synonym of promise of course, and the word promise is also used by the Leave campaigners in that link.
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They had no power or authority to act upon this suggestion so it remains a suggestion.

That is a fact.
 

oldgroaner

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They had no power or authority to act upon this suggestion so it remains a suggestion.

That is a fact.
Irrelevant like your comment, this affected the number who voted for leave ,are you really unable to face that fact?

And I would point out that Boris wanted to be PM, and fully expected to be able to honour that promise in due course.
Stop posting nonsense
 
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Fingers

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Irrelevant like your comment, this affected the number who voted for leave ,are you really unable to face that fact?

And I would point out that Boris wanted to be PM, and fully expected to be able to honour that promise in due course.
Stop posting nonsense

That doesn't even makes sense . And you accuse me of posting nonsense.....
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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They had no power or authority to act upon this suggestion so it remains a suggestion.
No, you are distorting events. At no time did the Leave campaigners ever indicate their promised outcome was a suggestion. It was intensively argued and publicised as a definite outcome, and still is by their leader, Boris Johnson.

Whether either the Leave or Remain campaign leaders would have authority to act is immaterial, their official status meant the electorate were entitled to expect firm promises made about outcomes would have at least a semblance of truth or even a possibility.
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Fingers

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No, you are distorting events. At no time did the Leave campaigners ever suggest this was an outcome. It was intensively argued and publicised as a definite outcome, and still is by their leader, Boris Johnson.

Whether either the Leave or Remain campaign leaders would have authority to act is immaterial, their official status meant the electorate were entitled to expect firm promises made about outcomes would have at least a semblance of truth.
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I disagree strongly.

I can't know exactly what people think and neither do you but I do think its a fatuos myth peddled by the true believers into justifying your devestating defeat at the hands of the British public.

Think about it. All the money we give the EU and it goes back into one sector. Not infrastructure, not the arts, not transport, not science, not....you get the point. The money we give the EU came back in a myriad of schemes and enterprises. The notion, or suggestion on the side of a bus was a simple, clear indication of how much money we give to the EU a week. And before you say it I know we got some of that back directly but it was a simple message that proved effective.

Firm promises were never given. The only one that could be given and promised was leave means leave.
 
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Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
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If MPs don't back Theresa May's Brexit deal there could be another EU referendum, Michael Gove has said.

The leading cabinet Brexiteer said Mrs May's deal was not perfect - but if MPs did not vote it through on 11 December there was a risk of "no Brexit at all".

Now wouldn't that be a shame !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
17.4 million people (less a few million) would be right fed up,hehe !!!!!!!!!!
KudosDave
 
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Danidl

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I'd seen it and read it. Can't see anything which is likely to ground aircraft on Brexit Day.
With respect, nor did you see anything which definitely assured that they would. There needs to be agreements in place, which may not be the case,in order to ensure that there is a seamless transition. At its worst, it could mean that aircraft maintenance mechanics who are still as competent on April 1st , as they were the preceding Friday, will no longer be authorised to sign off on a repair. There needs to be mutual recognition agreements signed off . These can be done even pro tempore, but it needs to have happened now.
I trust that you would not conduct your own business on such a hope basis. You presumably would require an audit trail of permissions and validated procedures from authorised bodies.
 
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Danidl

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The following article from the Irish Times... By a Chris Jones

It’s been another bad week for experts. Mark Carney, Bank of England boss, was described by Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg as “a failed second-rate Canadian politician who is talking down the pound”. That’s the same Rees-Mogg who just led a failed coup against the prime minister. The same man who said recently: “I always play the ball, not the man.”

For the record, Carney has never been a politician, has three degrees, one from Harvard and two from Oxford, and previously ran the Bank of Canada so successfully that the Canadian economy and banking system sailed through the global financial crisis of the last decade with barely a scratch.

The lowly status of experts and the associated disregard for facts is taking the UK into potentially crisis territory. We might be forgiven for thinking we are there already, but what could happen next is orders of magnitude more serious than anything we have seen so far.

There are many strands to this, not just the willingness of the double-breasted brigade to economise with the truth. The financial emasculation of traditional media in general and the political emasculation of the BBC in particular allows the great lies to go unchallenged.
Rees-Mogg’s attacks on Carney were a response to the fact that the governor is at it again. Yet the British government mandated him to update his analysis in light of the various options that have emerged now that the withdrawal agreement is done.

The boffins at the UK central bank were asked to model various outcomes, including Theresa May’s deal. And they all say the same thing. The numbers vary, depending on the nature of Brexit, but they all point in one direction: relative impoverishment.

May is touring the country trying to sell her deal over the heads of the many MPs in her own party who appear committed to voting it down on December 11th. She has been forced to admit, through gritted teeth, that she is advocating a policy that will damage the economy.

One or two Brexiteers have had the grace to accept the economic consequences of Brexit, saying that the regaining of sovereignty is worth the financial cost. Most Brexiteers, by contrast, cheerfully rubbish the expert analysis, and claim that there is nothing to fear from any kind of Brexit, even the hardest one of all.

A faction in British politics thinks that crashing out in four months’ time without a deal is a great idea. Nineteenth century anarchists would recognise what these people are up to, but would think it weird that they are mostly members of a conservative party.

Some Brexiteers do believe that there will be an economic benefit from Brexit. Where these beliefs come from is one of the mysteries of the age
Most Brexiteer analysis, such as it is, starts with “I believe”. And those beliefs are impervious to logic, facts or reason.

But there is something about that willingness to take massive risks with both the economy and political institutions that reminds me of the writings of the original anarchists. “Tear it down” is the philosophy, driven by the belief that what emerges will be both better than what came before and the associated price worth paying.

Uncomfortable facts
The unwillingness to pay attention to detail or face up to uncomfortable facts has led to one (at least) widespread belief that is dead wrong. Listen to any speech by a centrist MP, read most newspaper articles and you will, sooner or later, see or hear the phrase “hard Brexit can’t happen because the UK parliament will never vote for it”. That statement couldn’t be more wrong.

Just because they won’t vote for hard Brexit doesn’t mean it can’t happen. As a matter of EU law, the British can vote or not vote for whatever they like, but the rules are clear: the British triggered Article 50. So they leave on March 29th unless both the EU and London somehow agree to something different.

The only deal on the table, one that took over two years to conclude, is the withdrawal agreement. British MPs who vote against that deal are, for all practical and legal purposes, voting for a potentially unstoppable no-deal. Therein lies anarchy. Or, just possibly, that second referendum. Either way, the stakes couldn’t be higher – and the politics more sinister
 

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