Brexit, for once some facts.

oldgroaner

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I don't think Michael Gove meant it like that.
It is normal that treaties can be re-negotiated later by governments with different leaning.
In the brexit context, it helps to keep the future relationship vague at this point in time to help TM getting the deal through.
Sorry but that is assuming that this incompetent schoolboy was intent on making a personal sacrifice, when if fact he should have got his backside kicked for making such a bare faced and unnecessary threat of planned perfidy to the EU.
What a bloody stupid thoughtless thing to do, jeapordizing our negotiations for his own self justification, it shows what a rat he is.
 
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oldgroaner

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but we are not negotiating a trade deal yet. We only do the divorce contract at the moment.
By the time that we talk trade for real, demography means that the majority would be remainers and that's even before Brits living in EU27 are allowed to vote.
Gove was!
 
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Woosh

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oldgroaner

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The Daily Mail ans Sun gain the lead in the Daily Media Comedy race
"
'Putin tried to kill me with RAT POISON' says Russian model, 30, who fell ill with her husband in Salisbury restaurant on Sunday
  • Anna Shapiro and her husband Alex King were dining in Salisbury on Sunday
  • Pair then fell ill after eating at the restaurant, causing the city to go on lockdown
Ms Shapiro believes she and her husband were targeted by Putin's henchmen

What a clever ploy by Putin! and it can be bought over the counter too! Thallium rides again, what a convenient coincidence that the symptoms look so like Novichok .
And all for £2.50 a Kilo on the web!

Cue a thousand backdated conspiracy theories! :confused:
 
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oyster

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'Putin tried to kill me with RAT POISON'
I can't be bothered to follow those stories - they might well identify the specific agent.

Good to chortle on the fact that health food shops and pharmacies sell rat poison for human consumption - in the form of vitamin D. Perhaps Putin was concerned about the prevalence of rickets... :)
 

Woosh

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I am watching the brexit debate on #VictoriaLive on BBC2 this morning.
One recurring theme among the brexiters side is simplicity.
How long before we can all agree that brexit is not simple?
 

Fingers

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  • Anti-Brexit campaigners have claimed that, even if everyone who voted in the 2016 EU referendum were to vote the same way again, demographic changes mean that the UK population will have a remain majority by 29 March 2019, when the UK leaves. Peter Kellner, the former YouGov president, has done the analysis for the People’s Vote campaign, which wants a referendum on the final Brexit deal. His analysis involves looking at how the people voted in 2016 and then calculating how population changes - the death of mostly older voters, based on average death rates, and the fact that people who were too young to vote two years ago are now over 18 - will have altered the mix. It assumes people would vote as they did in 2016, and does not take into account evidence showing there has, separately, been a slight shift to remain. There is a very strong correlation between being older and voting leave, and previously Kellner calculated that the crossover point - the moment when remain would outnumber leave, assuming everyone still alive voted as they did two years ago - would come in November next year. But in the light of new polling showing that the “new voters” (people who are 18 or 19 now) are even more pro-remain than assumed has led him to conclude the the crossover point will come on 19 January next year. Kellner said:
YouGov’s latest figures tell us how those who were not yet 18 last time would vote now. Those who say they are certain to vote divide seven-to-one for remain. This matters statistically: for it helps to explain why demographic factors alone will cause the UK this winter to switch from a leave country to a remain country.

Because this cross-over point occurs before March 29, 2019 – when the UK is due to leave the EU – it means the British public’s view of Brexit will have changed even without anyone who voted two years changing their mind. Young people who were not eligible to vote in 2016 and can do so now make it much harder for anyone to claim that Brexit is still the ‘will of the people’.

Older voters are just as keen on leaving the EU as they were two years ago, younger voters are moving even more strongly into the remain camp – and the very youngest voters back continued membership of the EU by a remarkable margin. It is very rare for a significant demographic group to support one side so overwhelmingly on an issue that splits the nation down the middle.

What is more, young voters are the ones who will still be dealing with the long-term consequences of the current Brexit drama in ten or 20 years’ time, long after many leave voters have gone. Today’s young voters are making clear that they want a pro-European inheritance – and are ready to stand up and be counted, in a fresh public vote.

I have been thinking about this and also the argument that 16 year olds should be allowed to vote.

I think its only in a country like this that the older, read wiser, people are told that their votes mean less than younger people. In reality I would wager that 80% of under 21 year olds would struggle to identify between Michael Gove and Jeremy Hunt let alone what the EU is.

We should respect the older voters and appreciate their experience. There's a reason why the majority want out of the EU.
 

Woosh

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We should respect the older voters and appreciate their experience. There's a reason why the majority want out of the EU.
sure, there are good reasons to leave the EU but debate after debate, brexiters continue to maintain that the vote was simple, so is brexit, just leave and shut the door behind you.
The vote was indeed simple but the result wasn't because the margin is much smaller than the vote in 1975 (67% to 33%) and brexit is anything but simple.
The democratic mandate is, in many ways, proportional to the margin.
We can all move on a bit if people accept the practical costs of the divorce and stop repeating BJ's 'EU can go whistle'.
 
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Fingers

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I am watching the brexit debate on #VictoriaLive on BBC2 this morning.
One recurring theme among the brexiters side is simplicity.
How long before we can all agree that brexit is not simple?

That fish woman is very, very annoying. She's like a female Brexit version of groaner
 
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flecc

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I would wager that 80% of under 21 year olds would struggle to identify between Michael Gove and Jeremy Hunt let alone what the EU is.
Knowing who Gove and Hunt are is irrelevant, having grown up in such a multi-racial country they do appreciate what in principle the EU means and why its a good thing. And as intensive smart phone users they probably also know the EU did away with roaming charges, worth a vote on that alone.

There's a reason why the majority want out of the EU.
Sometimes ignorance, sometimes bigotry, never any soundly based reason.
.
 
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Woosh

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That fish woman is very, very annoying. She's like a female Brexit version of groaner
she wants to extend our EEZ to 200 miles. Is she completely ignorant on geography?
 
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Woosh

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And as intensive smart phone users they probably also know the EU did away with roaming charges, worth a vote on that alone.
I guess the majority of 18 years olds are too lazy to get out to vote if offered a second referendum.
 

oldgroaner

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An excellent joke!
If the people in my age group were older and wiser, they would not have fallen for the lies of the leave campaign, and they would have made the effort to understand what the EU is and what we gain from membership.
I have been thinking about this and also the argument that 16 year olds should be allowed to vote.

I think its only in a country like this that the older, read wiser, people are told that their votes mean less than younger people. In reality I would wager that 80% of under 21 year olds would struggle to identify between Michael Gove and Jeremy Hunt let alone what the EU is.

We should respect the older voters and appreciate their experience. There's a reason why the majority want out of the EU.
Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk
 
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Woosh

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If the people in my age group were older and wiser, they would not have fallen for the lies of the leave campaign, and they would have made the effort to understand what the EU is and what we gain from membership.
I suppose the older you are, the more you like to simplify the argument.
Remain can't keep their argument simple.
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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I guess the majority of 18 years olds are too lazy to get out to vote if offered a second referendum.
Not if they can vote online from their smartphones! :)

Joking apart I think enough 16 to 18 year olds would vote to make a real difference. Especially those in cities who have many concerned multi-racial friends and fellow students.
.
 
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flecc

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Remain can't keep their argument simple.
Here's simple!

The last time we departed from the EU it was a disaster, the economy collapsed and so did the culture. Well within 100 years even writing disappeared and it took several hundred years before missionaries from other countries started to return the country to what it had been.

I'm speaking of 410 AD when the Romans left Britain. We had prospered under their EU, common law and the common currency of the denarius, becoming more educated and trading widely with countries as far away as Turkey and North Africa. All that suddenly disappeared, replaced by the Dark Ages, a time of isolation, poverty and ignorance. That's what sovereignty cost us then.
.
 

Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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Here's simple!

The last time we departed from the EU it was a disaster, the economy collapsed and so did the culture. Well within 100 years even writing disappeared and it took several hundred years before missionaries from other countries started to return the country to what it had been.

I'm speaking of 410 AD when the Romans left Britain. We had prospered under their EU, common law and the common currency of the denarius, becoming more educated and trading widely with countries as far away as Turkey and North Africa. All that suddenly disappeared, replaced by the Dark Ages, a time of isolation, poverty and ignorance. That's what sovereignty cost us then.
.
What did the Roman's do for us?
 
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