Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

Vacationing Russians seem to have outstayed their welcome in Ukraine and now have an interest in English medieval architecture...

Suspicious story on both sides.

Our government claimed they travelled on false names but insisted they had firm evidence that they were FSB agents. If they didn't know their identity they couldn't have known what they did for a living. And if they really were FSB, they surely wouldn't have been so obvious as to travel together directly from Moscow, attempt killing and quickly leave directly back to Moscow. Russia is far more skilled at this game than that.

But the Russian mens story doesn't ring true either, I suspect them being trotted out to discredit our claims, good acting though if true.

It wouldn't surprise me if the Ukraine was behind the actual episode, perhaps on behalf of the UK. They are very bitter about losing the Crimea, over a quarter of their population are Ukrainian Russians so plenty with Ukrainian sympathies to choose from, and they were deeply involved in all KGB matters while in the USSR so probably are familiar with such as Novichok. And the Ukraine would have no compunction about killing a couple of Russians.
.

 

[oyster]

Just read it, as usual you are guessing wrong.It means more cost and more work for those involved for no great reward.
Another Brexit own goal.

I cannot think of a single export or import that is not going to be negatively affected, at least in a full leave situation. For a start, every single good will have to be classified under WTO rules (probably as well as EU rules).

Whether, in the fullness of time, some imports and/or exports also accrue some positive effects, I cannot tell. But I would be rather surprised if the positives outweigh the negatives most of the time.

I note the the £15 low value consignment relief is a dead duck. So the many of us who buy small quantities of fairly low value stuff will be stuffed. What might cost £5 will automatically go up to £6 (20% VAT) plus £8 RM charge = £14. That is assuming RM don't increase that charge - and I'm almost certain they will increase that because, they will claim, of the increased complexity. (Probably true but they would say that wouldn't they!)

 

[oyster]

I guessing it's good news.

Are you unable to read for yourself? And make your mind up as to whether it is "good" news - or not?

I'm going to guess there is a strong possibility that your and my assessments could be very different so there is little to no point in my answering your initial question.

 

[oyster]

Have been sort-of wondering if something like this might happen:

France may stop trains and planes from UK under no-deal Brexit

Senior politician says France is prepared to pass emergency laws to protect citizens

Eurostar trains may stop running in the event of a chaotic no-deal Brexit, the French minister for Europan affairs has warned.


Nathalie Loiseau sounded the warning as she made clear France was against a “blindfold Brexit”, in which key negotiating issues were deferred until the UK had left the EU.


Speaking in London, Loiseau coupled a firm commitment to protecting the single market with a frank warning that France would pass emergency legislation within weeks to protect its citizens from the impact of Britain leaving the EU without a deal at the end of March.


She said there was a real possibility that, in the absence of any contingency plans, Eurostar trains could be stopped on reaching French territory, and planes from Britain could be prevented from entering French airspace.


“This is the reason we must prepare for a no deal because we cannot wake up on 30 March and tell our businesses and citizens: ‘Well, we thought it would never happen, so we are not ready.’”


Loiseau also set out France’s resistance to a blindfold Brexit in which the EU and UK would fudge a deal on “future relations”, deferring difficult issues until after UK had left and the 21-month transition had begun.

Rest of article here:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/13/france-may-stop-trains-and-planes-from-uk-under-no-deal-brexit

 

[Fingers]

Have been sort-of wondering if something like this might happen:

France may stop trains and planes from UK under no-deal Brexit

Senior politician says France is prepared to pass emergency laws to protect citizens

Eurostar trains may stop running in the event of a chaotic no-deal Brexit, the French minister for Europan affairs has warned.


Nathalie Loiseau sounded the warning as she made clear France was against a “blindfold Brexit”, in which key negotiating issues were deferred until the UK had left the EU.


Speaking in London, Loiseau coupled a firm commitment to protecting the single market with a frank warning that France would pass emergency legislation within weeks to protect its citizens from the impact of Britain leaving the EU without a deal at the end of March.


She said there was a real possibility that, in the absence of any contingency plans, Eurostar trains could be stopped on reaching French territory, and planes from Britain could be prevented from entering French airspace.


“This is the reason we must prepare for a no deal because we cannot wake up on 30 March and tell our businesses and citizens: ‘Well, we thought it would never happen, so we are not ready.’”


Loiseau also set out France’s resistance to a blindfold Brexit in which the EU and UK would fudge a deal on “future relations”, deferring difficult issues until after UK had left and the 21-month transition had begun.

Rest of article here:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/13/france-may-stop-trains-and-planes-from-uk-under-no-deal-brexit

Amazing that anyone falls for this nonsense.

Project fear x 5

So how do American planes, coaches from Ukraine, boats from Morocco and Trains from Switzerland get access to the EU?

The Guardian is using remainers fears to increase traffic on its site. I know print media is tough but using click bait and out and out fear mongering to earn a coin is not something I would expect from The Guardian. But here we are.

Take this to the nth degree and what do you have? We stop planes flying over our airspace. Ireland becomes more remote. No Irish trucks allowed in.

I mean really?

Do you really think this is going to happen? Really really?

 

[oldgroaner]

Amazing that anyone falls for this nonsense.

Project fear x 5

So how do American planes, coaches from Ukraine, boats from Morocco and Trains from Switzerland get access to the EU?

The Guardian is using remainers fears to increase traffic on its site. I know print media is tough but using click bait and out and out fear mongering to earn a coin is not something I would expect from The Guardian. But here we are.

Take this to the nth degree and what do you have? We stop planes flying over our airspace. Ireland becomes more remote. No Irish trucks allowed in.

I mean really?

Do you really think this is going to happen? Really really?

Perhaps you should ask the French why they are making these statements?
I know you would like to pin this on project fear, but the guardian didn't originate this stuff simply reported it.
This isn't a project fear from the remainers is it?
And you and I have no influence on what the French say or do.
You would do well to stop being complacent and look at what is actually going on for once.
This may well be just hot air but it doesn't show confidence on the part of the French does it?
Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk

 

[oyster]

So how do American planes, coaches from Ukraine, boats from Morocco and Trains from Switzerland get access to the EU?

They have already got the necessary agreements. Once upon a time countries did not have such agreements. We are going in the direction of not having such agreements.

Does the report really say anything different in the Daily Mail?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6164719/British-planes-Eurostar-trains-STOPPED-no-deal-Brexit.html

You have already asserted the difficulty of prediction. I do not pretend to know whether it will or will not happen. But I most certainly wouldn't rule it out on current evidence.

 

[Fingers]

Instead of quoting you both I will answer once.

Groaner. Find me the statement. All you’ve got is ‘may’ and ‘possible’ the statement will have many caveats. This is click bait. It’s dog whistle journalism and you’ve come running.

Woof woof.

Oyster. If what you believe to be true from this mish mash of an article and it does happen then I predict this puts us at a war footing with our allies. No other explanation. It’s more than Russian sanctions yet Aeroflot is still allowed to land at Charles de Gaulle. The trans Siberian express still runs from Paris. Go figure...

If you like this article wait till Sunday. You’ll cream your pants at that one. The observer won’t let you down. Happens every week. It will make this article seem almost sensible.

Almost.

And using the Daily Fail to back up your argument says it all really.

 

[oyster]

Instead of quoting you both I will answer once.

Groaner. Find me the statement. All you’ve got is ‘may’ and ‘possible’ the statement will have many caveats. This is click bait. It’s dog whistle journalism and you’ve come running.

Woof woof.

Oyster. If what you believe to be true from this mish mash of an article and it does happen then I predict this puts us at a war footing with our allies. No other explanation. It’s more than Russian sanctions yet Aeroflot is still allowed to land at Charles de Gaulle. The trans Siberian express still runs from Paris. Go figure...

If you like this article wait till Sunday. You’ll cream your pants at that one. The observer won’t let you down. Happens every week. It will make this article seem almost sensible.

Almost.

And using the Daily Fail to back up your argument says it all really.

Just why would the DoT have tried, however ineptly, to make a side deal to avoid the issue? They wouldn't have done so unless there was at least some concern within the DoT.

 

[Fingers]

Just why would the DoT have tried, however ineptly, to make a side deal to avoid the issue? They wouldn't have done so unless there was at least some concern within the DoT.

Convenience?

Doing their job?

This is a game of brinkmanship. It’s how the EU works. Problem is we know it and they know we know it. And we know they know we know it.

This will always come down to a last minute deal with the heroic politicians shaking hands declaring everyone has won the morning after. They’ve already said most of the deal is in place.

The Irish want their moment in the sun too. Well, certainly this current administration... once that’s sorted then the real work starts.

 

[oyster]

Raab has just been on news refusing to give any idea whatsoever how much less than 37 billion will be paid if we don't get a deal. Absolute categoric refusal.

I'd suggest it would be very little less when all is added up.

 

[Danidl]

Amazing that anyone falls for this nonsense.

Project fear x 5

So how do American planes, coaches from Ukraine, boats from Morocco and Trains from Switzerland get access to the EU?

The Guardian is using remainers fears to increase traffic on its site. I know print media is tough but using click bait and out and out fear mongering to earn a coin is not something I would expect from The Guardian. But here we are.

Take this to the nth degree and what do you have? We stop planes flying over our airspace. Ireland becomes more remote. No Irish trucks allowed in.

I mean really?

Do you really think this is going to happen? Really really?

It is desirable to actually read what has been said not what the commentary suggests....
Some of these topics particularly aviation and maritime services have been posts.
There are long established international conventions for aircraft overflying other countries. So neither Ireland overflying the UK or UK overflying France Landing in them is however another matter. The same situation regarding laws of the sea..
The euro train is another matter... It was concieved within the EU ,is probably set up under EU legislation between two member states. It possibly may have no legal standing. What happens in the case of a crash or loss of life?? . Who gets sued, who has liability?.Which court adjudicates?. Whose police force goes down the tunnel to rescue the hostages?. These can all be resolved, but first they must be tabled,and eights months out, there is no such planning done.
The French minister is not scaremongering, just being prudent..a trait missing from her UK counterparts

 

[Fingers]

It is desirable to actually read what has been said not what the commentary suggests....
Some of these topics particularly aviation and maritime services have been posts.
There are long established international conventions for aircraft overflying other countries. So neither Ireland overflying the UK or UK overflying France Landing in them is however another matter. The same situation regarding laws of the sea..
The euro train is another matter... It was concieved within the EU ,is probably set up under EU legislation between two member states. It possibly may have no legal standing. What happens in the case of a crash or loss of life?? . Who gets sued, who has liability?.Which court adjudicates?. Whose police force goes down the tunnel to rescue the hostages?. These can all be resolved, but first they must be tabled,and eights months out, there is no such planning done.
The French minister is not scaremongering, just being prudent..a trait missing from her UK counterparts

Sadly we sold our half share in the Eurostar in 2010.

Those pesky conservatives again. I say pesky I mean scum.

But because we’re not in the Schengen passports still need to be checked. Nothing really changes for Brexit in this regard.

As for health and safety in the event of a crash or incident then long observed rules will remain.

Again. If it’s not broke. Why try and fix it?

Flights are a massive red herring imo. Forget EU law, International law of the skies is prevalent. Ironically this was set up by the UK decades ago, hence why all flight communication is in English. I really can’t see that changing.

Why France would want to stop us flying over their territory is an anathema to me. A pilot who is licensed to fly on March 31st should still be qualified to fly on April fools day.....yeah it’s not great timing.

But all it takes is a bit of common sense. IF there is a no deal. Which there will be. A deal I mean. To be clear.

It’s just headlines mate. It’s like Y2K all over again.

 

[Danidl]

Sadly we sold our half share in the Eurostar in 2010.

Those pesky conservatives again. I say pesky I mean scum.

But because we’re not in the Schengen passports still need to be checked. Nothing really changes for Brexit in this regard.

As for health and safety in the event of a crash or incident then long observed rules will remain.

Again. If it’s not broke. Why try and fix it?

Flights are a massive red herring imo. Forget EU law, International law of the skies is prevalent. Ironically this was set up by the UK decades ago, hence why all flight communication is in English. I really can’t see that changing.

Why France would want to stop us flying over their territory is an anathema to me. A pilot who is licensed to fly on March 31st should still be qualified to fly on April fools day.....yeah it’s not great timing.

But all it takes is a bit of common sense. IF there is a no deal. Which there will be. A deal I mean. To be clear.

It’s just headlines mate. It’s like Y2K all over again.

If you go back over my considerable number of postings, you will find that I have refrained from making comments about particular UK political parties or persons. As a non British person, I would consider it an intrusion,so i will not refer to pesky.

In my posting I made that point that there will be no difficulty in flying over each others airspace,or using each others ports. These two areas have been long agreed at international and global level.. ICAO, IMO, Warsaw convention etc. But landing rights ,except in specific emergencies, are the subject to negotiation. This has not been a problem for the EU and the UK, because it is one of the four freedoms, the principles of the EU. But the day the uk leaves, that changes. Ryanair could set up routes willy nilly , by just agreeing terms with the local mayor or chamber of commerce. But Flybe and easyJet and BA will have to re negotiate terms.
As an aside the status of Are Lingus, might be funny... It is owned by BA.

With respect your statement of" its not broke..." is cavalier in the extreme. Without an agreement it is broke.

 

[Fingers]

If you go back over my considerable number of postings, you will find that I have refrained from making comments about particular UK political parties or persons. As a non British person, I would consider it an intrusion,so i will not refer to pesky.

In my posting I made that point that there will be no difficulty in flying over each others airspace,or using each others ports. These two areas have been long agreed at international and global level.. ICAO, IMO, Warsaw convention etc. But landing rights ,except in specific emergencies, are the subject to negotiation. This has not been a problem for the EU and the UK, because it is one of the four freedoms, the principles of the EU. But the day the uk leaves, that changes. Ryanair could set up routes willy nilly , by just agreeing terms with the local mayor or chamber of commerce. But Flybe and easyJet and BA will have to re negotiate terms.
As an aside the status of Are Lingus, might be funny... It is owned by BA.

With respect your statement of" its not broke..." is cavalier in the extreme. Without an agreement it is broke.

On a purely personal note I would have no problem with you entering an opinion on our political system. I have always found the Irish some of the most competent and keen observers of political machinations. On either side of the fence. Or indeed the water. And to be clear I was not referring to you as pesky or your post.

But yes. I take your point. I was being slightly laissez fair (sic) on your point of landings.

But without trying to soundi glib my point remains. A mayor of said city would not want a huge revenue stream stop cocked because of some silly rule. To do so would be cavalier. And a detriment to progress financially.

I personally hate Ryan Air. And I am in the position of having to fly with them next Friday despite vowing never to do agin after my last experience. But the mother in law is more powerful than my standpoint....

My argument to this is wizz air. As a non EU member we could open the skies to them. Would little Ryan boy want that for all his posturing? No. Of course not.

As soon as we say your stanstead, Gatwick, Heathrow gates close we have another buyer what would he say then?

I don’t need to tell you the answer. And it’s the same with other countries.

Heathrow still remains in the top 3 hubs of the world. The world. Not including Gatwick that makes the UKs airspace very, very desirable and competitive.

You do the math as our yank friends say.

 

[Danidl]

On a purely personal note I would have no problem with you entering an opinion on our political system. I have always found the Irish some of the most competent and keen observers of political machinations. On either side of the fence. Or indeed the water. And to be clear I was not referring to you as pesky or your post.

But yes. I take your point. I was being slightly laissez fair (sic) on your point of landings.

But without trying to soundi glib my point remains. A mayor of said city would not want a huge revenue stream stop cocked because of some silly rule. To do so would be cavalier. And a detriment to progress financially.

I personally hate Ryan Air. And I am in the position of having to fly with them next Friday despite vowing never to do agin after my last experience. But the mother in law is more powerful than my standpoint....

My argument to this is wizz air. As a non EU member we could open the skies to them. Would little Ryan boy want that for all his posturing? No. Of course not.

As soon as we say your stanstead, Gatwick, Heathrow gates close we have another buyer what would he say then?

I don’t need to tell you the answer. And it’s the same with other countries.

Heathrow still remains in the top 3 hubs of the world. The world. Not including Gatwick that makes the UKs airspace very, very desirable and competitive.

You do the math as our yank friends say.

I did understand the pesky comment... No problems there.
Again i think you underestimate. While the local mayor might wish to retain landing arrangements, it will be out of his her hands and be a decision by the department of foreign affairs...
Ryanair's O Leary has stated that he will remove aircraft from the UK and reposition them elsewhere in Europe. He has set up his legal department on the assumption that the ECJ is the supreme court and the loss of revenue from the UK might well be made up by those slots vacated by easyjet and Flybe. So you may well be spared the ignominy of traveling Ryanair after next march.
Certainly Heathrow is impressive.. I was in Kew gardens last summer and noted flights landing at 30 second intervals all day.. but that is the international transcontinental market. .

Your argument that money talks ,is true.. but if it had the final say, BREXIt would have been stillborn.
Losing a market of 60 million will hurt, but losing a market of 400 million will hurt a lot more.
Just in case you think I am being insensitive, I am genuinely very worried about the damage to NI , Ireland, and the rest of UK , .. in that order. And I think the damage to NI will be the greatest, and I am not sure whether the RoI will hurt more or less than mainland UK.

 

[oldgroaner]

Groaner. Find me the statement. All you’ve got is ‘may’ and ‘possible’ the statement will have many caveats. This is click bait. It’s dog whistle journalism and you’ve come running.

No it isn't, it's simply reporting a statement made by the French but you fell for the corny "project Fear" that all Brexiters roll out when the see something that challenged the "Wisdom" of Brexit.
You can always wind up Brexiters with information they don'r want to see.
Ask yourself why is is in the Daily Mail too?
All you've got after all is
"Click Bait" "Project Fear" and a complete lack of common sense to discard what you don't like and dismiss something without understanding the situation

This was my posting
"This may well be just hot air but it doesn't show confidence on the part of the French does it?.

So how do you manage to twist that into this?

"Groaner. Find me the statement. All you’ve got is ‘may’ and ‘possible’ the statement will have many caveats. This is click bait. It’s dog whistle journalism and you’ve come running"

Actually it was you that came running wasn't it? trying to change my statement to suit you.
In fact the "Click bait " was as usual from you.

 

[oldgroaner]

In the Daily Mail this morning
Rees-Mogg’s hard Brexit group is being probed over a secret bank account: Commons watchdog concerned Tory set is 'misusing public funds' to support its campaign to crush May's Chequers plan

• The European Research Group is led by Jacob Rees-Mogg and Steve Baker
• Emails show it had a 'second' bank account for wining and dining supporters
• The group sparked a feud this week by pledging to kill off Mrs May’s ‘soft Brexit
• Its funding is now being investigated by Commons watchdog the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority

The new editors seems to have changed sides

 

[Zlatan]

In the Daily Mail this morning
Rees-Mogg’s hard Brexit group is being probed over a secret bank account: Commons watchdog concerned Tory set is 'misusing public funds' to support its campaign to crush May's Chequers plan

• The European Research Group is led by Jacob Rees-Mogg and Steve Baker
• Emails show it had a 'second' bank account for wining and dining supporters
• The group sparked a feud this week by pledging to kill off Mrs May’s ‘soft Brexit
• Its funding is now being investigated by Commons watchdog the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority

The new editors seems to have changed sides

It's been happening over last couple of months. Semi support for leaving articles are increasing in Daily Mail.

 

[Woosh]

It's been happening over last couple of months. Semi support for leaving articles are increasing in Daily Mail.

Paul Dacre was replaced by Geordie Greig as the new editor of the Daily Mail a few months back.
Leavers were definitely a minority in last night BBC Question Time.
Maybe that's because the show was in Banbury, not Thurrock, Essex.
Only one said 'just leave. Now!' with little applauds.
The normally combative and articulate Julia Hartley Brewer of the leavers side repeated vacuously 'respect for democracy' when giving her view on the second referendum.