Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldtom]

there are just as many 'industrialists' billionaires on the remain camp.

Without some qualification, that statement is entirely pointless.

Perhaps those millionaires and billionaires are content to remain in the UK and use this country as their tax base? I suspect they are perhaps less concerned with eternal personal wealth expansion than those who lobby for a tax regime kinder to the 5% while the plebs endure austerity.

Almost certainly, many of those remainers among the 5% will already have the vast majority of their fortunes squirrelled away in various tax havens in any case.

Tom

 

[oldtom]

He is, as I've often posted, utterly despicable.

Steady on 'flecc'! I wouldn't say he's that good.

Tom

 

[oldtom]

Oh dear! I don't know what's come over me but I just can't stop laughing.......

Tom

 

[oyster]

Oh dear! I don't know what's come over me but I just can't stop laughing.......

What is our plan for visa fees for EU citizens visiting the UK?

(Sorry, of course, we haven't actually got a plan yet. But what were the latest rumours and press releases?)

 

[oldgroaner]

Laugh of the Day in the Telegraph
"
Jacob Rees-MoggNo wonder the Tory establishment is attacking Boris, his leadership potential terrifies them

Is "leadership potential" why he went into hiding after the Referendum and again after the Heathrow vote with his Afghanistan visit?

 

[oldgroaner]

Tory politicians need zips on their mouths.
We are supposed to be negotiating a deal with the EU, and this idiot messes on his own doorstep
From the Express
"
‘Let’s GO OUR OWN WAY' - Senior Tory says UK can HARDEN Brexit stance after leaving EU
THE UK can harden its Brexit stance after it leaves the EU next year as treaties could be “unmade” further down the line, James Cleverly, the Conservative Party Deputy Chairman has contended."

For goodness sake put this skeleton back in it's cupboard

 

[oldgroaner]

The Independent carries this today
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-new-poll-public-final-say-no-deal-scenario-a8485161.html

The public mood is turning against Brexit if true
And to misquote one reader comment
The Brexit referendum was after all really only a case of Voters fed up with being ignored , taking the opportunity to show the Government the Willy of the Public

 

[Woosh]

Without some qualification, that statement is entirely pointless.

there are some good reasons why some rich people fund directly brexit or remain. They own businesses that are directly affected by the protectionism of the EU customs duty and regulations like fresh food, dairy, alcoholic drinks, sugars, meat, automobiles, coffee, vacuum cleaners etc.
The only well know strange cases are Aaron Banks. His business is insurance, and George Soros, investment finance.
I don't think tax evasion is a motivation.

 

[Woosh]

this is why brexit cannot be left to be decided by the conservative party:
JRM warns TM not to pass a deal with help from Labour.

he said "it would be very dangerous if the leadership attempted to work around those opposed to a compromise deal with the EU.
The most divisive thing for a party is to push through a policy which is opposed by a large number of your supporters on the back of opposition votes,”

https://www.ft.com/content/7b715388-9cba-11e8-9702-5946bae86e6d

the real enemy of the people are JRM and those like him.

 

[oldgroaner]

this is why brexit cannot be left to be decided by the conservative party:
JRM warns TM not to pass a deal with help from Labour.

he said "it would be very dangerous if the leadership attempted to work around those opposed to a compromise deal with the EU.
The most divisive thing for a party is to push through a policy which is opposed by a large number of your supporters on the back of opposition votes,”

https://www.ft.com/content/7b715388-9cba-11e8-9702-5946bae86e6d

the real enemy of the people are JRM and those like him.

No, Jackass, the real danger comes from your Tax Haven supporting Cabal, trying to subvert the party it parasites on, and sacrifice the nations future for personal profit.

Not that this constitutes any support for the actions of this government, trying to save Brexit is simply a waste of time.

Brexit is no longer the whim of the people

 

[oyster]

The Independent carries this today
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-new-poll-public-final-say-no-deal-scenario-a8485161.html

The public mood is turning against Brexit if true

From that link:

In an ominous sign for the prime minister, 64 per cent agreed with the statement “if we get a bad deal, it will mainly be the UK government’s fault”, with 23 per cent disagreeing and 14 per cent saying they did not know.


In the case that negotiations are completed, 45 per cent backed a new referendum on the deal, while 34 per cent opposed it and 22 per cent said they did not know.

It feels as if the first few months were taken up with "well what do we do now?", followed by complete failure to actually understand what needed doing (even assuming that brexit was the real goal). Reaching the current mess in which aim, talk and action are even more unclear than on the first day.

My only reason to even question whether there should be a public say is the fear that circumstances we have not yet appreciated could make it just as bad as the original referendum.

 

[oyster]

The most divisive thing for a party is to push through a policy which is opposed by a large number of your supporters

Doesn't that mean pushing through brexit, wherever it sits on Moh's scale, is also a most divisive thing to do? There are quite a number of ardent through mild remain backers in the tory assemblage. (Find it difficult to even think of it as a "party".) Both in parliament and in the country.

Always remember that JRM's words are only intended to apply in the precise situation he is writing about. You cannot pick up principles and use them to guide in the generality of cases. They are pretty bereft of principles, in my view.

 

[Woosh]

My only reason to even question whether there should be a public say is the fear that circumstances we have not yet appreciated could make it just as bad as the original referendum.

At the moment, the future of the UK is held to ransom by about 15% of MPs, entirely down to an unlucky conjunction of factors.
if the deal needs to be confirmed, then what is needed is a fresh GE. MPs are less influenced than the general public by extreme journalists or fake news.

 

[oyster]

Brexit is no longer the whim of the people

To repeat my little jokelet, it has transformed from apparent will-o'-the-people to what it really always was, will-o'-the-wisp.

Wiki reminds me that its Latin name (for JRM) is ignis fatuus. Foolish fire. Or, as I prefer, setting light to your own farts. And probably ending up with a nastily burned arse.

 

[oyster]

a fresh GE

Really? The mess of the tories going into an election could be profoundly disturbing. If they did split, and if the brexit mob lost, it just might be "a good thing" - otherwise, I really don't know.

Quote below - not intended for the facebook link, just the fact of it. (I don't do facebook so have not followed it.)

Robert Peston‏Verified account @Peston

Brexiter Tory MPs warn me that May’s Chequers plan could lead to break up of Conservative Party https://www.facebook.com/1498276767163730/posts/2100466520278082/ …

3:57 am - 10 Jul 2018

• 820 Retweets
• 1,819 Likes
• 
  
• 917 replies . 820 retweets 1,819 likes

‏ @joefmills Jul 10

Replying to @Peston
Better still a brand new party that welcomes pro European, business and progressives from across the current party spectrum. So many of us ’48%’ feel politically homeless right now. Party representation would be game changing and get us out of this sorry #Brexit mess.

 

[oldtom]

if the deal needs to be confirmed, then what is needed is a fresh GE. MPs are less influenced than the general public by extreme journalists or fake news.

MPs have had ample opportunity to vent their opinions and they simply cannot be trusted to represent the best interests of their constituents.

The whole 'Brexit' mess was created by way of a referendum and before the UK slips out of (or crashes!) the EU, the public should be given the opportunity to decide by a further referendum, whether the nation should proceed or reject the proposal for secession.

The prospect of a GE is a bit of a red herring, whatever result failing to satisfy either side of the 'Brexit' debate.

Tom

 

[Woosh]

MPs have had ample opportunity to vent their opinions and they simply cannot be trusted to represent the best interests of their constituents.

you have to pick a system of representation, either direct (plebiscite) or indirect (general election). Flip-flopping between the two gave us this sort of crisis. Was the EU referendum advisory? If it was, then it's up to MPs to decide.

 

[oldtom]

Was the EU referendum advisory? If it was, then it's up to MPs to decide.

Exactly my point! As we have been informed previously, the EU exit referendum was deemed to be advisory but MPs largely decided to adopt is as parliamentary policy, (will of the people - who can argue with it?), even before any debate had occurred in the Commons.

The leaders of other nations have never understood how such a momentous decision can be taken on the basis of such a slim majority in a poll which failed to take account of everyone likely to be affected by the outcome.

My view is that the process should be stopped now as not being in the best interest of the British people. If there is sufficient political interest thereafter, let the political parties include their stance in their manifestos prior to the next GE.

Tom

 

[oldtom]

Boris Johnson and others of his ilk have made many derogatory comments about the Muslim people living in the UK. This infographic is interesting:



Tom

 

[Woosh]

but MPs largely decided to adopt is as parliamentary policy, (will of the people - who can argue with it?), even before any debate had occurred in the Commons.

it does not matter that a debate has occurred before MPs take a position.
what matters is a small percentage (about 15%) of MPs managed to acquire extra-ordinary power: to ransom a big country like the UK, and there is no mechanism to stop them except a new election so that the people can kick them out.