I stopped reading newspapers & watching tv news when the IRA, seeking publicity started their action. Things can get out of kilter when the truth gets in the way of a good story.
Somethings never change.
Somethings never change.
Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
- Start date
15 years ago BBC, many so called experts were urging Uk to adopt euro.
Some ( but not many) said " hang on a minute , how are we going to attract business if we cant devalue our currency when struggling. The Greeks, the Spanish etc knew this fact but were bought of with short term payments. ( reduced interest on their already burgeoning debts)
Now, those very countries are wishing they had control of currency as we do.
If we stay , just how long before we either adopt euto or Sterling is tied to it out of our control.
Will we be a Getmany, who doesn't need to devalue, or a Greece, which certainly does. ???
Country must keep independent control of all Fiscal matters. Anybody thinking otherwise as not studied problems countries face when its lost.
Some ( but not many) said " hang on a minute , how are we going to attract business if we cant devalue our currency when struggling. The Greeks, the Spanish etc knew this fact but were bought of with short term payments. ( reduced interest on their already burgeoning debts)
Now, those very countries are wishing they had control of currency as we do.
If we stay , just how long before we either adopt euto or Sterling is tied to it out of our control.
Will we be a Getmany, who doesn't need to devalue, or a Greece, which certainly does. ???
Country must keep independent control of all Fiscal matters. Anybody thinking otherwise as not studied problems countries face when its lost.
I find the best thing is a wide mix of audio-visual media.
To make a judgment it's often also helpful to view the images without sound (commentary), one's eyes alone then being the evidence rather than being steered.
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While I agree with your sentiments about premature fiscal union, no trading country ever has independent control of all fiscal matters in a globalised world. The actions of others determine exchange rates and tariffs for example, those in turn controlling our financial fortunes and living standards.
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The way the Eurozone deals with the issue is the best under the circumstance. Greece has to get rid of its structural deficit first, which it has practically achieved,then grows its economy. It's painful but apparently, it works. The only alternative is 'can't pay, won't pay'.
Greeks want to keep the Euro and not return to the drachma so choose to pay and part of the debt will be forgiven.
and where are we on our deficit? our way of dealing with it is property price inflation.
Greeks want to keep the Euro and not return to the drachma so choose to pay and part of the debt will be forgiven.
and where are we on our deficit? our way of dealing with it is property price inflation.
Ireland faced with the same problem promptly did this, not making the mistakes the Greeks made in trying to rebel.
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Yes obviously world market activities effect our fiscal position but we can respond to them, by devalueing if necessary. Greece cant, neither can any other countries within eu, and its exactly why mentioned countries ate still in recession.
How can Greece compete with Getmany on equal valued unit of currency. It cant. Neither can any poorer members of eu, so at moment Merkel bales them out. But for how long ? Yes Greece has further issues ( ie they don't pay tax properly !) bit fundamental issue is inability to adjust unit of money , essentially to attract tourists and investment. Only a matter of time,its a ticking bomb that could destroy euro and eu. Just speak to some Greeks trying to run.businesses..
Thinking eu couldn't be disbanded is at best naive. Its nearly happened already.
Risk of staying in is worse than leaving. Just go over to Greece, Northern Spsin, Southern France. Portugal. I,m telling you its a shambles and is never mentioned by anyone in media. In Spain youths fo not work.There is none for them. Our image of it all is sanitised until you,ve seen it and tried to work within it.
How can Greece compete with Getmany on equal valued unit of currency. It cant. Neither can any poorer members of eu, so at moment Merkel bales them out. But for how long ? Yes Greece has further issues ( ie they don't pay tax properly !) bit fundamental issue is inability to adjust unit of money , essentially to attract tourists and investment. Only a matter of time,its a ticking bomb that could destroy euro and eu. Just speak to some Greeks trying to run.businesses..
Thinking eu couldn't be disbanded is at best naive. Its nearly happened already.
Risk of staying in is worse than leaving. Just go over to Greece, Northern Spsin, Southern France. Portugal. I,m telling you its a shambles and is never mentioned by anyone in media. In Spain youths fo not work.There is none for them. Our image of it all is sanitised until you,ve seen it and tried to work within it.
It's largely about "further issues". The Greek behaviour has been insanely irresponsible, for example on finding they could borrow freely in the union, they did so to expand their armed forces to a ridiculous size on the proceeds, without any regard for how they were going to pay back. If they'd invested the borrowings wisely they would have got the returns necessary.
As for Greeks trying to run businesses, they have a large and very wealthy class still making lots of money from their businesses. Greek shipping for example, the world's largest shipping fleet by tonnage, worth €251.1 billion in 2015 income. That's huge for a country of under 11 million people, €20,000 per head from just one of their businesses. Someone can live very well on €20,000 a year in Greece!
If tax was paid on that and its personal proceeds, they might not have so many problems. As I mentioned above, Ireland faced with the same fiscal problems set about successfully solving them and was never so irresponsible with borrowed money.
The Greeks don't have any problems due to the EU, they've caused all of their own problems.
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I read them and remember the sage words of Aneurin Bevin
"I read the newspapers avidly. It is my one form of continuous fiction"
By your logic California or any other state with fiscal problems should be causing the breakdown of the USA, but it isn't.
And how do you manage to imagine that being outside the EU isn't a huge risk? You quote circumstances in other countries that are in fact totally irrelevent to our situation, as if somehow their situation sets some sort of example?
It does but in the opposite way to the one you suggest, in that there is sufficient freedom within the EU (which Brexit Fans deny) for governments to botch up the way they run their country.
lord knows we should know that from the way ours has behaved for years.
Just imagine how much worse their case would be if the EU Broke up!
And it follows obviously, ours too.
Sorry Flecc, that is nonsense. Greece has had almost insurmountable problems since loosing ability to revalue currency. Other stuff is almost incidental. ( apart from their view of tax, which is at best bizzarre)
Got a mate running a businesss in Kos. ( Its why I was there)
Asked him about tax, hisvteply..." What,s that?"
Spoke with Hotel owners, bar owners, car hire folk. All insistent they wanted out so the could devalue, and hence attract outside investment, tourism etc.
For a poorer country its almost suicidal to not be able to revalue.( unless you ha
Ve Germany in background offering cash for sovereignty of your islands !!
( which Germany tried, and you want to be part of that? Either side.
We,re better biting bullet, taking short term hit. If I were a betting man I,d put a bet on eu imploding with or without us in not too distant future. Much of eu is absolutely fed up with it all. Much of eu is chaotic. Much of eu is financcially unstable. Germany can only prop it up for a while. Why do you think Merkel is so intent in our staying. They need our financial clout to.prop up the failing countries and the mass bureaucracy..
Its a shambolic mess.
Sorry old groaner..life is too short to read your utterances.
So now you are fretting over something that has not happened and we have the power to prevent?
How do you prevent Greece, Italy, Portugal, Spain going bankrupt ?? Were it not for Germany they all would be ! (Financial world even has a term for it. PIGS of Europe)
Ps I was referring to length of posts not content.
That last lines tells everyone far more about your character than you should be happy to reveal.
Perhaps patience will come in time...
I gave you some facts, you reply by saying facts are nonsense.
The "Other stuff" is not incidental, it's at the core of their troubles since they caused the fiscal disparity that now cripples them. They did that, not the EU.
As I've illustrated with just one of the business earnings, they should be very well off. If we in the UK had a proportionally large shipping income instead of practically none, it would be £632 billions, transforming our economy.
It's the Greek disastrous political management which is their problem.
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flud, the average debt level of Eurozone countries is 90.7% of GDP, UK is 90.6%
The best in the eurozone is Luxembourg, 23% of GDP, the worst is of course Greece but in amount, it's not that big.
The Eurozone does not run any bigger risk of going bust than the UK.
Same for the Euro and the Pound.
The best in the eurozone is Luxembourg, 23% of GDP, the worst is of course Greece but in amount, it's not that big.
The Eurozone does not run any bigger risk of going bust than the UK.
Same for the Euro and the Pound.
Flecc
Its that size after billions written off and billions given. Athens was almost a no go area last year with troops on streets throwing tear gas at ordinary people " rioting" about austerity measures imposed by eu...???
Oldgoaner. Fair comment. Shouldn't have said it. Apologies.
BTW look at history of pound/euro relationship. Pound has been almost parity( some experts said it would stay around parity when it was there) EU experts said they,d see demise of sterling years ago. It climbed back to really high levels a few years ago, settling to its current fairly stable level. Its performed better than euro last 10 years.
UK economy is (IMO) strongest in eu.Yes eu has helped ( lack of tarrifs etc) but that will be insignificant when reality of eu dawns on people.
Ps Greek economy shrinking by around 4% pa. UK,s growing by around 2%.!!
Then look at Spain, Portugal and Italy.
Why do you want to align and eventually hand over control to an organisation which must sort these issues out before looking at ours. UK,s problems are insignificant at side of those mentioned..
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On a slightly different vein, I have allways believe that authority and responsibility have to be in the same hands.
Applying that to Europe, then if Europe holds all the fiscal control, then they must also be responsible for the outcomes and accountable for them
Take Greece, they have all but lost all fiscal control, no mechanisms to flex such as exchange rates, interest rates and heavily indebted to Germany making them under complete control.
Then in such case Germany is now morally responsible for the welfare of the Greek people, which they pointedly refuse to accept currently. Germany are holding all the European levers of power for the benefit of Germany
This is one huge problem will be the end of Europe if not addressed
Greece were weak and unable to resist but eventually the people will react in other ways.
The UK is not weak, not yet so we are duty bound to fight this cause on behalf and for the benefit of all
Europe is doomed unless it changes, remember that one thing
The Brexit referendum is not the cause of that, but for sure may influence it
I disagree whole heartedly. They were a basket case before. They were allowed to join the Euro, on ex rates and interest rates that were clearly not suited, they were encouraged and bribed with loans "repeatedly" and you think this was done blindly by the EU who simply blinkered by their Federal goals
Then the EU is now morally responsible and must help out the Greeks PROPERLY. not just demanding huge sacrifices and no prospect of a future.
What kind of way is that to treat your fellow EU citizen
That's like the UK Government working for London and to hell with Manchester and Leeds, even Scotland. OOPS maybe wrong example but you get my point.
Are we individual sovereign states or a single European entity, and if you agree we are still someway in between (which you should), then they need to start thinking of the pragmatic and moral political way forward instead of saying one thing publicly and then look after own country separately behind closed doors