Brexit, for once some facts.

Woosh

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Are cruise missiles and high quality explosives any more human than chlorine ammunition?
I wish we would stop getting on these high horses. Dropping our bombs on Syrians won't make us morally superior than those who wage wars over there.
 

tillson

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From the Express this morning

"
FURY as Jeremy Corbyn 'plays into hands of Kremlin' by DEMANDING 'peace talks' on Syria
JEREMY Corbyn has been blasted for “playing into the hands of the Kremlin” after demanding Theresa May hold peace talks with Russia on Syria and calling for the Prime Minister to seek Parliament’s approval for airstrikes."

By whom exactly? he's the only one talking sense.

And the readers comments are not following the Government line on this at all.
And a similar pro war report in the Daily Mail met a hostile response from the readers.
Why is there such a rush for military action? There isn’t even any proof that a chemical attack happened. Everything seems to be based around video footage shot by the white helmet aid workers who are known not to be 100% reliable.

The majority of readers comments in The Mail seem to be strongly against military action, either calling for May to resign, or for a vote in Parliament. Even Peter Hitchens was on the radio yesterday making a great deal of sense with his argument to proceed with great caution and to not get involved.

Somehow, I fear that the crazy bitch isn’t going to listen to advice and will drag the country into a conflict with dire consequences. There seems to be a hair-trigger desire to start a hostile conflict with Russia for some reason. The flimsiest of evidence appears to be justification for action with the gravest of consequences. Nobody wants this except May and a handful of her liars. If hostilities do start, I hope that she is the first to die.
 

oldgroaner

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Why is there such a rush for military action? There isn’t even any proof that a chemical attack happened. Everything seems to be based around video footage shot by the white helmet aid workers who are known not to be 100% reliable.

The majority of readers comments in The Mail seem to be strongly against military action, either calling for May to resign, or for a vote in Parliament. Even Peter Hitchens was on the radio yesterday making a great deal of sense with his argument to proceed with great caution and to not get involved.

Somehow, I fear that the crazy bitch isn’t going to listen to advice and will drag the country into a conflict with dire consequences. There seems to be a hair-trigger desire to start a hostile conflict with Russia for some reason. The flimsiest of evidence appears to be justification for action with the gravest of consequences. Nobody wants this except May and a handful of her liars. If hostilities do start, I hope that she is the first to die.
While I agree with almost all of that, I don't wish death on anyone.
 
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tillson

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While I agree with almost all of that, I don't wish death on anyone.
If due to a decision that a person makes, the possibility of their own death or that of a loved one is very real, then it makes for better choices and a more rational thinking. Rest assured, that piece of filth May or any of her liars will not put themselves or their families in any danger. That makes it very easy for them to drag us into conflicts.

For that reason, my hope is that May will be the first casualty of any conflict that she starts. I know it is impossible for that to happen, but I can still hope
 
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Zlatan

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While I agree with almost all of that, I don't wish death on anyone.
I agree but if the ones making decisions were first to die they would be making different decisions.??
( Post crossed with Tillsons, same sentiments)

This is plain crazy.

And from The Times
"The OPCW’s report on the Salisbury incident is due to published around noon.

The Foreign Office said it had asked the OPCW to release an executive summary of its findings at midday on Thursday."

Timing is rather convenient,depends what they announce I suppose.
 
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oldgroaner

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I wonder how much thought TM and co have given to the possibility that our Obsolete Tornado Bombers are liable to be sitting ducks against the new generation Russian missiles and fighter aircraft?

And for the Americans to risk a Nimitz class carrier with 6000 personnel, while lobbing obsolete Tomahawk 550 mph Cruise Missiles at targets defended by anti missile missiles allegedly capable of 10,000 mph?
Put yourself in Putin's shoes, if you wanted to teach the American's a lesson they would never forget, what would you make the priority target?
And the damage to American notions of invincibilty would be gone in a flash.
 
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oldgroaner

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Are cruise missiles and high quality explosives any more human than chlorine ammunition?
I wish we would stop getting on these high horses. Dropping our bombs on Syrians won't make us morally superior than those who wage wars over there.
We should give the "Ministry of Defence" its proper name
"The Ministry of War" property of The United States of America.

And all because the "lady"
Likes Chlorinated Chickens.
 
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oldtom

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Somehow, I fear that the crazy bitch isn’t going to listen to advice and will drag the country into a conflict with dire consequences. There seems to be a hair-trigger desire to start a hostile conflict with Russia for some reason. The flimsiest of evidence appears to be justification for action with the gravest of consequences. Nobody wants this except May and a handful of her liars. If hostilities do start, I hope that she is the first to die.
Tillson, I agree wholeheartedly with your remarks on this subject. Unfortunately, these self-aggrandising, political creatures who seek to elevate themselves to the level of W. Churchill in the public's consciousness, are only too eager to throw our scant military resources into a hopeless, unwinnable war while always ensconced further back from the action than the generals.

Anyone who is up to speed on modern history will know that Churchill's record as a military leader isn't quite as great as the picture painted of him by the tory establishment's newspapers and radio/TV, so in that regard, perhaps Thatcher, Blair and Cameron could well be described as having Churchillian qualities.....and now May?

Churchill never impressed the Free French in WW2 and the American military regarded him as strategically stupid, a loose cannon in their efforts to invade Europe and tackle the Germans head-on and drive them back to Germany. School history seems to conveniently avoid the WW1 Mesopotamia campaign and Churchill's part in Gallipoli, probably the biggest naval disaster since the battle of Medway.

Today, we see May behaving like some latter-day Britannia while the Met police are led by the trigger-happy Cressida Dick, the woman who ordered the assassination of the young De Menezes chap based on wholly wrong intelligence. The country is not safe with leadership committed to blithely ignoring common sense and seeking violence without proper examination of evidence.

Attached, I hope, is a recording of a BBC interview with Peter Ford, former British Ambassador to Syria which is well worth six minutes of one's time:


Tom
 
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tillson

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I wonder how much thought TM and co have given to the possibility that our Obsolete Tornado Bombers are liable to be sitting ducks against the new generation Russian missiles and fighter aircraft?

And for the Americans to risk a Nimitz class carrier with 2400 personnel, while lobbing obsolete Tomahawk 550 mph Cruise Missiles at targets defended by anti missile missiles allegedly capable of 10,000 mph?
Put yourself in Putin's shoes, if you wanted to teach the American's a lesson they would never forget, what would you make the priority target?
And the damage to American notions of invincibilty would be gone in a flash.
Again, it’s not that dog turd May sat in the obsolete Tornado or indeed relying on any other obsolete piece of equipment to preserve her life. I wish it was her.
 
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Zlatan

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This seriously undermines our claim to have a democracy.
Thatcher, Blair and now it appears May have taken country to war with varying but certainly not a majority of population's support.
Why has country not changed the mechanics to prevent this happening. In 1982 Thatcher had good support to retake Falklands; Blair had some support because of his lies and now it seems May would at best get 25% of us to support this.
Why can PM make biggest possible decision there is without having either parliamentary or voters support. It is madness.
I did think yesterday she was coming to her senses, she,s lost them today.
Surprised French are tagging along !!
 

Zlatan

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Tillson, I agree wholeheartedly with your remarks on this subject. Unfortunately, these self-aggrandising, political creatures who seek to elevate themselves to the level of W. Churchill in the public's consciousness, are only too eager to throw our scant military resources into a hopeless, unwinnable war while always ensconced further back from the action than the generals.

Anyone who is up to speed on modern history will know that Churchill's record as a military leader isn't quite as great as the picture painted of him by the tory establishment's newspapers and radio/TV, so in that regard, perhaps Thatcher, Blair and Cameron could well be described as having Churchillian qualities.....and now May?

Churchill never impressed the Free French in WW2 and the American military regarded him as strategically stupid, a loose cannon in their efforts to invade Europe and tackle the Germans head-on and drive them back to Germany. School history seems to conveniently avoid the WW1 Mesopotamia campaign and Churchill's part in probably the biggest naval disaster since the battle of Medway.

Today, we see May behaving like some latter-day Britannia while the Met police are led by the trigger-happy Cressida Dick, the woman who ordered the assassination of the young De Menezes chap based on wholly wrong intelligence. The country is not safe with leadership committed to blithely ignoring common sense and seeking violence without proper examination of evidence.

Attached, I hope, is a recording of a BBC interview with Peter Ford, former British Ambassador to Syria which is well worth six minutes of one's time:


Tom
Or his fiasco at Dardenelles which almost killed his career stone dead.
His order to sink French fleet at Brest was also proved later to have been " probably" unnecessary..( The French Admiral scuttled ships rather than hand over to German's, the ones Churchill didn't sink that is. )
 
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oldgroaner

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This seriously undermines our claim to have a democracy.
Thatcher, Blair and now it appears May have taken country to war with varying but certainly not a majority of population's support.
Why has country not changed the mechanics to prevent this happening. In 1982 Thatcher had good support to retake Falklands; Blair had some support because of his lies and now it seems May would at best get 25% of us to support this.
Why can PM make biggest possible decision there is without having either parliamentary or voters support. It is madness.
I did think yesterday she was coming to her senses, she,s lost them today.
Surprised French are tagging along !!
The "Royal prerogative" is the reason she can do this.
Time it was revoked.
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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We should give the "Ministry of Defence" its proper name
"The Ministry of War"
That was its proper name for centuries. It was only changed from the Ministry of War to Ministry of Defence around 1904, just as we conceived the idea of propaganda which was first used in the first World War.

However, the government department that administered the army continued to be called the War Office until 1964.
.
 
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flecc

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Inspectors back UK in spy poisoning row

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43741140
Bunkum:

"The OPCW does identify the toxic chemical by its complex formula but only in the classified report that has not been made public."

Things are only hidden when there is something to hide, and they haven't even said it was Novichok. Shows the OPCW or its press office is a part of the Western anti-Russian propaganda alliance.
.
 

Zlatan

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Report from OPCW
"Today the international chemical weapons watchdog have confirmed the findings of the United Kingdom relating to the identity of the toxic chemical used in the attempted assassination of Mr Skripal and his daughter, and which also resulted in the hospitalisation of a British police officer. That was a military grade nerve agent – a Novichok.

This is based on testing in four independent, highly reputable laboratories around the world. All returned the same conclusive results.

There can be no doubt what was used and there remains no alternative explanation about who was responsible – only Russia has the means, motive and record."
 

flecc

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Report from OPCW
"Today the international chemical weapons watchdog have confirmed the findings of the United Kingdom relating to the identity of the toxic chemical used in the attempted assassination of Mr Skripal and his daughter, and which also resulted in the hospitalisation of a British police officer. That was a military grade nerve agent – a Novichok.

This is based on testing in four independent, highly reputable laboratories around the world. All returned the same conclusive results.

There can be no doubt what was used and there remains no alternative explanation about who was responsible – only Russia has the means, motive and record."
Disagree, see my post above. They didn't even say it was Novichok or indicate where it might have come from, some confirmation!
.
 
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flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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And now further confirmation of what I posted, that Putin would face down the West over Syria.

Trump has tweeted that a raid could be very soon, or not soon at all.

Theresa May has said that any action will need very careful thought first.

Simple fact, they are both scared. Hopefully sense will prevail and they won't do anything or at least limit a response.
.
 

oldgroaner

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Ooops!!

Inspectors back UK in spy poisoning row

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43741140

so lets get on with it..


View attachment 24162
But they didn't Tommie, did they?
"
The international chemical weapons watchdog has confirmed the UK's analysis of the type of nerve agent used in the Russian ex-spy poisoning.

The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons did not name the nerve agent as Novichok, but said it agreed with the UK's findings on its identity.
"
10.
The results of analysis by the OPCW desi
gnated laboratories of environmental and
biomedical samples collected by the OPCW
team confirm the fi
ndings of the United
Kingdom relating to the identity of the toxic chemical that was used in Salisbury and
severely injured three people.

But they never said who made it, used it or where it came from did they?
In other words
They said it was of a "Novichoc type "agreeing with the porton Down statement
Nothing else.
 
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oldgroaner

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There can be no doubt what was used and there remains no alternative explanation about who was responsible – only Russia has the means, motive and record."
Where's the conclusive evidence of Whodunnit?

Because we have no alternative explantation?
Here are no less than 10 I can think of without even having to try
  1. Unless of course it was used by someone other than the Russian Government,
  2. Russian Mafia
  3. Dissidents,
  4. regegade chemists,
  5. Syrian terrorists
  6. Iraqi terrorists (we know it was made there)
  7. the guy selling ex agency poisons from his garage we have heard of,
  8. One of the ex USSR states who had access to the stuff,
  9. or from America, or here?
  10. It was smuggled in for the victims to use on someone else and they got careless?
Questions remain
  1. Where are the missing son and partner that were living in the house
  2. Who were the so called pair who "delivered the parcel from Syria"
  3. Why would it be in Syria in the first place?
  4. What became of the missing cat?
  5. Why did it not turn out to be lethal?
But lets ignore all that, too much effort, and we have a Bogy man we can blame personally.
 
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