Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

.[9] A public inquiry began on 27 January 2015,[10] and concluded in January 2016 that Litvinenko's murder was an FSB operation, that was probably personally approved by Vladimir Putin.[11] ( Can FSB do anything without Putin's approval ?)

I'm fully aware of that of course and dismiss it since it still used the same totally false evidence about the polonium 210. As I said in the previous post, Berezovsky was liked by our politicians for his continuous condemnation of Putin. They look after their own interests.

And of course Russia is not to blame for criminal actions of its ex citizens here. The blame is entirely ours for letting them in to settle here, knowing their nature. It was the stolen vast wealth they brought that attracted our politicians and allowed them in, even to the extent of granting them British citizenship in some cases. So blame our Home Office politicians who should never have let them in. Note these crooks didn't try to go to the USA, they knew how differently they'd have been dealt with there.
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[flecc]

From the Guardian.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/16/russian-spy-poisoning-attack-novichok-chemist

Mirzayanov, 83, a chemist who worked with the poison, said:

“I believe they brought binary version. It’s two ampules, small containers, like a big bullet, put them together in a spray or something, and after that, some mechanism which is mixing them, a couple seconds and after that you’re shooting.
It’s extremely poisonous, about 10 times more potent than VX gas, it could touch any skin and in a couple minutes would take effect.”

The first sign of exposure is a shrinkage of pupils and darkening of vision, he said. “After that vomiting, [difficulty] breathing and convulsions.”

An antidote can delay or partially reverse the effects of the poison but would not necessarily save the life of the victim, he said.

it's similar to what you would have seen in movies.
One crucial difference though, the police did not report seeing spasms that would normally be triggered by a nerve agent.

Which makes no sense for the police to be checking the car they left long before or any previous locations they'd been in. Add that no spasms were seen and I think that once again we're seeing a story more inspired by political convenience than truth.
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[oldtom]

And of course Russia is not to blame for criminal actions of its ex citizens here. The blame is entirely ours for letting them in to settle here, knowing their nature. It was the stolen vast wealth they brought that attracted our politicians and allowed them in, even to the extent of granting them British citizenship in some cases. So blame our Home Office politicians who should never have let them in. Note these crooks didn't try to go to the USA, they knew how differently they'd have been dealt with there.

Absolutely!

Tom

 

[flecc]

It isn't the call to arms and making her out a heroin she has hoped for.

The heroin really needs an "e" on the end OG.

She'll be getting a call from the police otherwise.
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[Zlatan]

Hang on a minute Flecc. Sir Robert Owen carried out an in depth public inquiry, and the report runs to 328 pages. Its conclusions ( page 245, sect 10.9 to 10.16) conclude that Litvinenco was poisoned by polonium 210 ingested from contaminated tea,put there by 2 Russian agents. ( 10.16 The FSB operation to Kill Litvinenco was probably approved by President Putin)
You cant just dismiss such a report on pure speculation.
These are the facts as close as is possible to get to them.
Dismissing public enquiries is simply contradicting what actually happened.
Yes lots of other organisations from Spanish Mafia to our own MI6 are mentioned and involved to some degree or other but to just dismiss conclusions reached is like insisting Kray twins were innocent. Its not a sensible stance Flecc. You are suggesting you have a better insight / know more than Robert Owen or that he,s somehow corrupted.
Are we really trying to say 2 or 3 blokes posting on here actually know more about mentioned topic than a years PI considering 10 years police, MI6 , CIA investigation. ?
Have you read the inquiry in its entirety?
( Not sure Berezovsky played such a big roll in Owen's conclusions..but the report does take some digging through)

Its accepted as a given FSB organised this killing, it was suggested the agents may have thought they were administering truth drugs and there is no proof Putin ordered killing...but do either of those sound plausible. Its why conclusion 10.16 says probably...we cant prove Putin gave order but we know it was FSB and know he rules FSB without compromise.

 

[Danidl]

I wouldn’t want to be the first truck U.K. to EU,post Brexit.
KudosDave

Yes I also prefer to be a human being than a truck...

 

[oldgroaner]

We had a public inquiry lasting just over a year who,s conclusions were ( as stated in earlier post) that FSB planned and carried out the killing of Litvenco. They went further and said " probably under Putin's direct orders"
Now I accept Wiki and every other media outlet may put slants on things or even tell complete lies but a public inquiry OG ? ( working on evidence gleaned over 10 years and a year of debating it?)
Its you refusing to accept facts, or are you saying the very fabric of our society is corrupt and or biased? ( The independent public enquiry about Litvencos death is available for all)
Or are you saying the very organisation that got, and keeps , Putin in power actually carry out killings without his knowledge ? Or did public inquiry get it all wrong...because OG thinks differently.?
This death is now just one of 15 . Look who is examining the most recent case and study backgrounds of victim. Then compare those with chap laid comatose in a hospital bed now.
My question is why wasn't more done when public inquiry came to conclusion it did.??? Why have we had to have more. Its no longer a case of is Russia guilty over the latest case, enough had been done in 2006. Or do you want to just carry on ignoring it all ?

Just to remind you I never asserted he was innocent, did I, but you jumped to the conclusion that I had.
I pointed out the story is full of holes,and we should stick to the i internationally agreed protocols.
As to the other cases I have made no comment, except for pointing out the government chose to ignore them, and accept Russian money.
And the lies about Iraq and weapons of mass destruction are proof of corruption.

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[Kudoscycles]

Chris Grayling stated on Question Time that trucks could travel across the Channel just like the US-Canada border,what he didn’t mention (perhaps he didn’t know) was that the average delay on the US border is 16-28 minutes and one in ten trucks is held for further info.....if that happened at Dover or Calais the queues would be 180 km long,causing deadlock around the M25.
As Grayling is so confident about no delays perhaps he should offer to resign if his ‘throw open the borders’ idea doesn’t work.
Are their no Leavers left on Pedelecs,perhaps we have convinced them of the folly of their decision.
KudosDave

 

[oldgroaner]

The heroin really needs an "e" on the end OG.

She'll be getting a call from the police otherwise.
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Freudian slip there [emoji23]

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[Woosh]

Are their no Leavers left on Pedelecs,perhaps we have convinced them of the folly of their decision.

I am a soft leaver.

 

[oldgroaner]

Chris Grayling stated on Question Time that trucks could travel across the Channel just like the US-Canada border,what he didn’t mention (perhaps he didn’t know) was that the average delay on the US border is 16-28 minutes and one in ten trucks is held for further info.....if that happened at Dover or Calais the queues would be 180 km long,causing deadlock around the M25.
As Grayling is so confident about no delays perhaps he should offer to resign if his ‘throw open the borders’ idea doesn’t work.
Are their no Leavers left on Pedelecs,perhaps we have convinced them of the folly of their decision.
KudosDave

The folly is trusting this government, indeed the whole Westminster flying circus

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[anotherkiwi]

I am a soft leaver.

Yeah but you are cheating because you will leave the UK yourself to retire to France. Doing a Whexit...

 

[oldgroaner]

I am a soft leaver.

Don't tempt fate with admissions like that[emoji46]
Close your eyes and think of (fill in preferred country of origin)

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[flecc]

Hang on a minute Flecc. Sir Robert Owen carried out an in depth public inquiry, and the report runs to 328 pages. Its conclusions ( page 245, sect 10.9 to 10.16) conclude that Litvinenco was poisoned by polonium 210 ingested from contaminated tea,put there by 2 Russian agents.

You've ignored what I posted previously. The public inquiry held 12 years later relied entirely on the evidence presented after the murder. To assign blame to Russia that used entirely false information about tracing the polonium 210 trail. It was scientific nonsense. Added to that were the statements that it was difficult to obtain so could only have come from Russia, when in truth it was legally freely available for those who knew how, as I did, and then either legally or illegally held.

Having been a licenced user of polonium 210 isotopes over a 22 year period I have substantial knowledge of this subject, the properties of the material and how it could be obtained, and that enabled me to instantly see how ridiculous the story was.

Those are the facts, the public inquiry was based on undeniably false evidence and therefore it's conclusions are necessarily invalid.
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[Zlatan]

You've ignored what I posted previously. The public inquiry held 12 years later relied entirely on the evidence presented after the murder. To assign blame to Russia that used entirely false information about tracing the polonium 210 trail. It was scientific nonsense. Added to that were the statements that it was difficult to obtain so could only have come from Russia, when in truth it was legally freely available for those who knew how, as I did, and then either legally or illegally held.

Having been a licenced user of polonium 210 isotopes over a 22 year period I have substantial knowledge of this subject, the properties of the material and how it could be obtained, and that enabled me to instantly see how ridiculous the story was.

Those are the facts, the public inquiry was based on undeniably false evidence and therefore it's conclusions are necessarily invalid.
.

So your argument revolves around a year long " independent" public enquiry being wrong. A report I suspect you haven't read ?
If we are going to contradict public inquiries there really is no faith in anything. The inquiry was none political. Its pointless me making any points at all if we merely dismiss public inquiries as wong .
An argument based on an assumption of an incorrect PI is to my mind totally unbelievable.
This thread was started in a quest for facts, facts you choose to dismiss when it suits your stand point.
Has our country really reached the point where apparently sensible members of society see corruption and ill in our main avenue of investigation. No wonder there is so much argument in our midst.
And I very much doubt 22 years experience of anything puts anyone in a position to know more about polonium 210 than was gleaned during the investigation.
Personally I neither see error or bias in the public inquiry but perhaps both in those dismissing its findings.

 

[Woosh]

An argument based on an assumption of an incorrect PI is to my mind totally unbelievable.
This thread was started in a quest for facts, facts you choose to dismiss when it suits your stand point.

public enquiries are about finding solutions that satisfy the public.
It is based on moderated democracy which is not the same as science.

 

[Zlatan]

public enquiries are about finding solutions that satisfy the public.
It is based on moderated democracy which is not the same as science.

So you think the reports findings are wrong ?
And the report came to conclusions it did to satisfy the public ? Cant see it myself..they are quite pointless then..

 

[Woosh]

So you think the reports findings are wrong ?

No. I have no opinion on those reports.

At the political level, you have to make up your mind and tell the voters where you stand.
It's not fact based and does not require a high degree of proof.
You'll pay of course for jumping on the wrong horse.

BTW, Tony Blair paid. BJ and Gavin Williamson are idiots and will have to pay eventually.

 

[Zlatan]

No. I have no opinion on those reports.

At the political level, you have to make up your mind and tell the voters where you stand.
It's not fact based and does not require a high degree of proof.
You'll pay of course for jumping on the wrong horse.

BTW, Tony Blair paid. BJ and Gavin Williamson are idiots and will have to pay eventually.

One of principles of PI is to determine the facts in attempts to prevent occurance again.
Are we really saying the facts arrived at can be dismissed if individuals feel they are wrong. That will lead to a few problems with Grenfell...
We can look for error in recommendations from PI but to dismiss what they see as facts. ( in Letvinenko case the assumption FBS planned killing) is actually quite ridiculous.
The goal of preventing reoccurrence has obviously failed probably because folk dismiss findings without even reading report .

 

[Woosh]

One of principles of PI is to determine the facts in attempts to prevent occurance again.
Are we really saying the facts arrived at can be dismissed if individuals feel they are wrong. That will lead to a few problems with Grenfell...

that are indeed the aims and the reality often falls short of them.
Many people with the right information are gagged or discouraged to come forward because of their employment (access to privileged information or non disclosure contract or fear for their safety etc) and the people who participate need to have their point of view heard, which are not the same as police investigation.
You don't have to look far, see the Leveson report.
As for preventing future happening, you come to the murky world of political make believe and politicians' promises.