Brexit, for once some facts.

[Danidl]

Not really, Russia has asked for a sample so they can check the validity of the accusation. We've ignored that entirely justified request, so by refusing to supply the evidence of guilt we have in law conceded they are right and are innocent.

Our CPS and police forces have been currently under fire for exactly the same, failing to disclose evidence, thus calling into question many cases.
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National security matters and indeed media reporting are held to a different standard than domestic felony cases. The best that can be achieved is a balance of probabilities.
Diplomates serving in another country are there as guests of the host country and may be asked to leave at any time. The only right they have is not to be detained or have their belongings searched... Although even that right can be resinded by their ranking superior the Ambassador. Case in point such as a member of staff being involved in a RTA. Mr May was fully inside her rights to request any or all of the staff including the Ambassador to leave. However it does invite a response in kind.

 

[flecc]

I think Putin is responsible either directly ( ie under his instructions) or indirectly through poor security of the Russian nerve agent.

The latter cannot be said since this group of nerve gases were created by the USSR when Putin was a nobody in the KGB. When the USSR fell apart it was chaotic and we know that nuclear materials and information and vast quantities of many kinds of arms fell into all sorts of Russian and foreign hands. That state persisted for years until Putin, after taking over from Yeltsin, pulled the country back together and instituted some order.

He cannot be held responsible for those leakages during the period of chaos or any during the preceding period under the USSR.
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[flecc]

National security matters and indeed media reporting are held to a different standard than domestic felony cases. The best that can be achieved is a balance of probabilities.
Diplomates serving in another country are there as guests of the host country and may be asked to leave at any time. The only right they have is not to be detained or have their belongings searched... Although even that right can be resinded by their ranking superior the Ambassador. Case in point such as a member of staff being involved in a RTA. Mr May was fully inside her rights to request any or all of the staff including the Ambassador to leave. However it does invite a response in kind.

This has nothing to do with what I posted and you quoted. That was just an observation on the legal status as it stands, and it's the same for international as well as national affairs.
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[Danidl]

National security matters and indeed media reporting are held to a different standard than domestic felony cases. The best that can be achieved is a balance of probabilities.
Diplomates serving in another country are there as guests of the host country and may be asked to leave at any time. The only right they have is not to be detained or have their belongings searched... Although even that right can be resinded by their ranking superior the Ambassador. Case in point such as a member of staff being involved in a RTA. Mr May was fully inside her rights to request any or all of the staff including the Ambassador to leave. However it does invite a response in kind.

Just how much of the material remains for samples to be given? . It's not like a biological agent that could be regenerated. And presumable there wasnot a litre of the stuff sitting around in a bottle with cyrllic writing

 

[Danidl]

This has nothing to do with what I posted and you quoted. That was just an observation on the legal status as it stands, and it's the same for international as well as national affairs.
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If the UK wanted to make a case at the international war crimes tribunal ..they would need more evidence certainly. But that is not where this is going.
The US USSR Cuban crisis of 1962 was based on a few photographs which could have been faked.....

 

[Zlatan]

The latter cannot be said since this group of nerve gases were created by the USSR when Putin was a nobody in the KGB. When the USSR fell apart it was chaotic and we know that nuclear materials and information and vast quantities of many kinds of arms fell into all sorts of Russian and foreign hands. That state persisted for years until Putin, after taking over from Yeltsin, pulled the country back together and instituted some order.

He cannot be held responsible for those leakages during the period of chaos or any during the preceding period under the USSR.
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Agree with some of that..but look at his methods for achieving that order. ( The inside Putin programme?)
I really think giving Putin the benefit of doubt is the dangerous route. Yes, dont do anything rash.( wars have started for less).. Assuming his guilt is the safer option. Not sure how your politics of freedom for people sits at side of support for Putin's innocence. He,s a dictator presiding over a supposed democracy. And you support those that attack May..I don't understand that Flecc.

Reading a medical report this morning, which I cant refund now...anyhow point it made was basically..." The two victims in hospital may not be dead but they will never recover and that there could be repercussions in years to come for any exposed to tiniest of amounts.....Great..

 

[tommie]

The latter cannot be said since this group of nerve gases were created by the USSR when Putin was a nobody in the KGB. When the USSR fell apart it was chaotic and we know that nuclear materials and information and vast quantities of many kinds of arms fell into all sorts of Russian and foreign hands. That state persisted for years until Putin, after taking over from Yeltsin, pulled the country back together and instituted some order.

He cannot be held responsible for those leakages during the period of chaos or any during the preceding period under the USSR.
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lol flecc,

come on, this isn`t your usual standard, you`re really scrabbling around in the bottom of the bucket now!

 

[Zlatan]

lol flecc,

come on, this isn`t your usual standard, you`re really scrabbling around in the bottom of the bucket now!

You haven,t read all Flecc,s posts ! ( sorry Flecc)

 

[flecc]

I really think giving Putin the benefit of doubt is the dangerous route.

Not so, it's the thing decent people do and the basis of all good legal systems.

Not sure how your politics of freedom for people sits at side of support for Putin's innocence.

I haven't supported Putin's innocence. I've repeatedly posted that I've no idea who was responsible. What I'm doing is exposing the total lack of any sound basis for saying either Russia or Putin are the guilty party. They are just two of many likely possibilities since both Russia and Putin have many enemies with the resources and ability to discredit them.

He's a dictator presiding over a supposed democracy.

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with dictatorship, it's older than democracy and has often been superior to democratic alternatives. As for the "supposed democracy", I've pointed out before to you that Putin has done what was necessary to overcome the chaotic legacy of the breakup of the USSR and a substantial majority of Russians support him in that. That is a democratic outcome.
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[flecc]

lol flecc,

come on, this isn`t your usual standard, you`re really scrabbling around in the bottom of the bucket now!

Really, observing the dispersal of arms and information resulting from the breakup of the USSR is wrong?

Isn't it true you faced the Kalashnikovs that escaped that way to end up in IRA hands?
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[flecc]

You haven,t read all Flecc,s posts ! ( sorry Flecc)

With 37,345 posts to date, you could hardly blame Tommie for that.
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[tommie]

I haven't supported Putin's innocence. I've repeatedly posted that I've no idea who was responsible. What I'm doing is exposing the total lack of any sound basis for saying either Russia or Putin are the guilty party. They are just two of many likely possibilities since both Russia and Putin have many enemies with the resources and ability to discredit them.
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Oh dear, it just get`s worse...

now you`re just being gullible,

or possibly `pretend gullible` maybe ??

 

[flecc]

Oh dear, it just get`s worse...

now you`re just being gullible,

or possibly `pretend gullible` maybe ??

Neither, I just refuse to be brainwashed by propaganda from either side and that's especially true when there are deliberate lies issued as "evidence".

I make up my own mind, being gullible is blindly accepting one version when the two presented are both so questionable.
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[Zlatan]

Mmm. Two people at deaths door. Area contaminated with a Russian made nerve agent fir which they should have records for whereabouts of every mg. Putin has an election coming up ( Sunday?) He campaigns on how he fights West. His poularity goes up and for a bonus he might even get billions back if we kick out oligarchs?
No smoking gun but ??

What proof will you need ? I doubt we,ll ever get it.
Perhaps this is another hang over from Blair and WMD ??

This is nothing to do with propoganda on our part...probably on Russia's...

Exactly which bit is propoganda Flecc??

 

[tommie]

I make up my own mind, .

Good,
so who do you suggest pray tell?

The Americans?
The French, Germans, Italians?
The Girls Brigade?
How about those horrible Unionists??!

Flecc, if it Walks like a Duck, Talks like a Duck, Looks like a Duck.
then it is an effin DUCK!

Don`t insult your own intelligence please.... you`re better than that.

 

[flecc]

Perhaps this is another hang over from Blair and WMD ??

Indeed. Then the politicians insisted Iraq and it's president were guilty of having WMD but the public largely disagreed, some like me explaining why that was not true. The public were right.

Now we have the politicians once again insisting on the guilt of a president and country while many of the public here, and it appears in France at least, disagreeing. The public right again?
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[Woosh]

politicians on both sides, UK and Russia, seem to want the same thing: increase the sense of insecurity in their population.
Useful when you want to gain populist support and to spend more on defense rather than on the NHS.

 

[flecc]

Good,
so who do you suggest pray tell?

In the Soviet era all the satellites were engaged in their civil and military operations for deliberate strategic reasons, it was a major strength and a US weakness. That's why the Ukraine for example has so many Russian nuclear facilities. They could well have the knowledge to carry out this attack, as could Georgia. Following the Russian attacks on them, both countries now have a bitter hatred of Russia and would be delighted to discredit Russian and Putin in any way. Using Russian victims to do that would be putting icing on the top, especially when the victims are ex KGB agents.

And those two countries are far from the only possibilities

Flecc, if it Walks like a Duck, Talks like a Duck, Looks like a Duck.
then it is an effin DUCK!

Or it is meant to look like a duck.

Don`t insult your own intelligence please....

I'm not insulting it, I'm using it.
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[Zlatan]

In the Soviet era all the satellites were engaged in their civil and military operations for deliberate strategic reasons, it was a major strength and a US weakness. That's why the Ukraine for example has so many Russian nuclear facilities. They could well have the knowledge to carry out this attack, as could Georgia. Following the Russian attacks on them, both countries now have a bitter hatred of Russia and would be delighted to discredit Russian and Putin in any way. Using Russian victims to do that would be putting icing on the top, especially when the victims are ex KGB agents.

And those two countries are far from the only possibilities



Or it is meant to look like a duck.



I'm not insulting it, I'm using it.
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Sorry Flecc I think you are doing exactly what Putin wants you to do...but no doubt you think same of me with our government.
At least the discussion is healthy...and allowed here..???

 

[flecc]

Sorry Flecc I think you are doing exactly what Putin wants you to do...but no doubt you think same of me with our government.
At least the discussion is healthy...and allowed here..???

Or maybe you are doing exactly what the real perpetrators want you to do? Assume the obvious.

Given the dominance of the uncertainties I prefer to not accuse anyone, but instead defend anyone accused on the basis of unsupported accusations. Defending on that basis is not saying they are innocent, it just acknowledges the inadequacy of the evidence and the scale of other possibilities.
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