Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

I have no doubt that it was soft porn which is no big deal. When confronted with the allegation he should have said, yes, it's mine, so what?

You know as well as I do that is impractical for a politician. The public are often bigots, and no more so than in the respect of politicians. Admitting to soft porn, if there was any, would damage both him and his party, and why should he when he'd done nothing wrong and it would have been a private matter if present.

To declare war on the police and discredit them shows flawed judgement, dishonesty and a lack of integrity.

No war has been declared, given his former misbehaviour in connection with Damian Green's property, this ex officer's statement is suspect to put it mildly. It's right to question it, and since the whole thing is a storm in a teacup it should be dismissed as inconsequential.

Fortunately the number of senior officers who condemn this ex officers action, not just the knighted one you accuse unfairly of corruption, will ensure the matter will soon disappear, as it should.
.

 

[Woosh]

In the context of this discussion, it is forensic evidence.

I don't think there is any in this case.
The laptop has been given away years ago.

 

[oldtom]

I'm at a loss to imagine how lots of pornographic images were found on Damian Green's computer and that poses a problem for me in this way:


1) Green denies downloading such material.

2) It was his own computer, used for both business and private reasons.

3) If Green shared his computer with someone, who might that have been?

4) Was it his private secretary? Was it that person who downloaded the porn?

5) If not a PS, was it a family member? If so, should he be allowing access to parliamentary business to family members?

6) Was it someone else who shared the computer?

7) If no-one from those mentioned above had access to the computer, then was this an act of deliberate malice, designed to discredit Green?

8) Could the images have been downloaded remotely?

9) Did the police officer lie?

10) Did Green lie?

11) Why have so many senior figures rushed to vindicate Green - how would they know about his online habits?

12) If this was a malicious act to undermine Green's reputation on the part of a former police officer, why has he not been charged with libel, alternatively, charged with breaching the OSA?

Perhaps charges will be brought after some further investigation? If I were Green, and confident about my innocence, I would be extremely angry at these revelations and would demand exoneration through the judicial process. Surely that must happen as the man is now branded and the matter will always be with him throughout his career?

Tom

 

[tillson]

You know as well as I do that is impractical for a politician. The public are often bigots, and no more so than in the respect of politicians. Admitting to soft porn, if there was any, would damage both him and his party, and why should he when he'd done nothing wrong and it would have been a private matter if present.



No war has been declared, given his former misbehaviour in connection with Damian Green's property, this ex officer's statement is suspect to put it mildly. It's right to question it, and since the whole thing is a storm in a teacup it should be dismissed as inconsequential.

Fortunately the number of senior officers who condemn this ex officers action, not just the knighted one you accuse unfairly of corruption, will ensure the matter will soon disappear, as it should.
.

With the big jobs come responsibility, accountability and an expectation of impeccable integrity, even more so when the big job is in public office. The job is also precarious, one slip and it’s all over. That’s why the big jobs come with big rewards.

Damian Green has slipped up with how he has handled this. It looks dodgy, it looks like ranks are closing in, it looks like favours are being called in from those already rewarded or who wait in expectation of future rewards. It all looks bad, not what one would expect from someone in a big job. He should go for how he has handled the allegation.

 

[flecc]

With the big jobs come responsibility, accountability and an expectation of impeccable integrity, even more so when the big job is in public office. The job is also precarious, one slip and it’s all over. That’s why the big jobs come with big rewards.

Damian Green has slipped up with how he has handled this. It looks dodgy, it looks like ranks are closing in, it looks like favours are being called in from those already rewarded or who wait in expectation of future rewards. It all looks bad, not what one would expect from someone in a big job. He should go for how he has handled the allegation.

Once again, we have no proof he has slipped up, there may have been no pornography on the computer, or none that he had uploaded.

There was a time when the officer could have used proper protocols to have this investigated if there was pornography on the computer. Then it could have been investigated properly with privacy intact as it should be, innocent until proven guilty.

Bringing it up now, publically and unlawfully, when there's no computer to look at and when the Conservative party is very vulnerable is suspicious at the very least. That officer once had his chance and didn't use it. Now is too late for credibility.

Damian Green has denied that there was any pornography, meaning in the absence of any proof to the contrary he has handled the matter perfectly and has no reason to resign.
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.

 

[oldgroaner]

All

Once again, we have no proof he has slipped up, there may have been no pornography on the computer, or none that he had uploaded.

There was a time when the officer could have used proper protocols to have this investigated if there was pornography on the computer. Then it could have been investigated properly with privacy intact as it should be, innocent until proven guilty.

Bringing it up now, publically and unlawfully, when there's no computer to look at and when the Conservative party is very vulnerable is suspicious at the very least. That officer once had his chance and didn't use it. Now is too late for credibility.

Damian Green has denied that there was any pornography, meaning in the absence of any proof to the contrary he has handled the matter perfectly and has no reason to resign.
.
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All of these events whether by accident or design are proving a very handy diversion from the seriousness of decisions being made about the future of the country as is the engagement of 'Arry and Meghan.
Gifts from the Gods TM may well think......and Murdoch and co too

 

[Steb]

Yes but hardly the same thing. Here we are dealing with a possibility of ths presence of prornography, which even if present was adult soft porn as the ex officer acknowledged, and therefore in no way improper, let alone illegal.

And if present, it was on a private computer which the officer accessed illegally without a warrant, for which he was duly heavily criticised and no doubt reprimanded by the force. Clearly he has an axe to grind and he is the only one who has acted illegally in this affair, not Damian Green.
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If you were part of a research group, you would know the answer. There are protocols for so doing. My point in bringing up this point is not that a policeman may not make decisions but where they come accross material in the course of their duty , they are obligated to go through a protocol and not to make it publically available, naming persons, without it being the basis for a prosecution . The term is unauthorised disclosures , and the police service as a disciplined service has to follow these rules. That he is retired does not lessen the obligation. It is my contention that he should be prosecuted for breaking the official secrets act.

it all happens in the context of Saville etc. unfortunately this country's cultural baggage is not only about Victoria repression. it's also about systemic and other abuse and misdemeanour - often colluded with and hidden by those in power. damian green looking at porn on a private or public pc in his office at work is a boundary transgression. recent history have shown that systemic transgressions like this is more often the thin end of a wedge than not.

 

[flecc]

If I were Green, and confident about my innocence, I would be extremely angry at these revelations and would demand exoneration through the judicial process. Surely that must happen as the man is now branded and the matter will always be with him throughout his career?

Tom

As I said in this post, a politician cannot do that without causing much more damage. This will die out as the storm in a teacup that it is. There's so much other bad news due shortly, that is ensured.
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[SHAN]

Something to remember in amongst all the pro and anti "Green" is Hillsborough. Read the final outcome. Read the outcome of the MP's expenses scandal. There is a huge part of the population see the establishment as swimming in an ocean of bile, but remain untouchable. So when any member of this special club is seen to foul up, a lot of people go into "attack" mode, possibly because they see it as the only way to hit back. Let's see what happens with the Grenfell inquiry, go and study the background of that, it is truly sickening, as is the lack of action over the child abuse scandal. Its quite interesting reading how Robert Mueller is progressing with his enquiry in the States, perhaps the UK could do with having an investigative power that is above any outside control, then see how many sweaty collars there are. Just remember what Bernard Ingham said about Hillsborough, and the various others in high rank, police and politicians alike. Court and judicial system worked well there didn't it.

 

[Kudoscycles]

The government have agreed to staying part of EASA,European Aviation Safety Agency,the agency has 'indirect control' by the ECJ,whatever indirect means. Theresa May wanted to exit the ECJ but sense seems to have prevailed in that the government just don't have the expertise or time to replace this agency,without which planes could not have flown into the UK airspace,EASA is also linked with the American FAA.
Is it possible that May will change her mind over Euratom,the EU medicine agency,hope so.
Milburn resigned today over May's inability to improve social mobility in the UK,he said the walk doesn't match the talk,remember she said the Tories were going to be the party for everyone,care for the Jams,Milburn said that Brexit is so consuming that the government has no time or energy for anything
The electorate are waking up to this,one poll puts Labour 8 points ahead of the Tories.....wonder how many Leave voters don't trust the Tories to give us a good deal over Brexit.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

Senior police officers will say anything in return for money, title & power. Those speaking out have either been bought off by a title, are acting under the promise of a future title or are chasing money through promotion. If the government shout $h!t, these characters will squat down and squeeze.

The evidence against Green seems to be very strong. Other non government individuals have had their lives wrecked by accusations backed up by far less evidence.

Green should have admitted this at an early stage and accepted that his conduct reflects badly on the image of our parliament. To deny the evidence is pathetic and to brand the police as liars and unethical is very wrong. Green has made himself unfit for purpose.

I guess the policeman has chosen to leak this information because it was being buried by parliament and ignored.

The police were left with egg on their face when they raided Greens offices and found nothing except some legal porn on his commuters. When police retire they should respect confidentiality,these policemen were out of order stating about the porn....I suspect they had their own reasons to release these matters now,perhaps 'persuasion' by some newspaper at a moment when politically this could be a good story.
The policeman on the TV didn't exactly present himself well,unshaven,not smart,looked a bit of a mess...his manner and explanations were not believable or coherent,he would have made a poor witness,no wonder the police want to distance themselves from him.
I walked into a car dealership,couldn't find a salesman anywhere,the whole dealership were in the managers office watching hard porn....sorry guys don't want to interrupt but I am here to buy a car. There can be no computer in any establishment which is not riddled with porn.
This policeman should be convicted of releasing info which he should have kept to himself,bet if you check his own computer it will be full of porn.Embarassing episode for the police,apology due I think.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

Would a no deal ,and a hard border, be worse than a dishonest fudge? I really don't know the answer to that ... Its frying pan and fire. Would a deal where the UK steps back from a brink they all on their oneio walked up to be better for all.?, Including you in NI ? I have an answer for that.

Everybody went off on a tangent when I suggested that we will end up with a deal that looks like being part of the club,including staying in the customs union,it seems the only solution to overcome problems like the Irish border.
With the U-turn May did over EASA,she is the mistress of the U-turn,Hammond is half heartedly preparing for no deal(it must be already too late for customs)I think we will end up with a Soft Brexit that will be packaged to look like a Hard Brexit.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

We know that the pornography was accessed via Green’s log in account. We know that the writing and viewing of emails addressed to and from Green are punctuated by periods of viewing porn. We know that documents addressed to Green were viewed either side of porographic images being viewed. We know that documents purporting to be from a Green were constructed on the computer during sessions of pornography access.

The options are:

Green viewed and downloaded the images.

Green was working at the computer, but gave up access intermittently so that someone else could have a quick perv.

As I’ve said, nothing wrong with looking at a nude lady, but something is very wrong about denying it, trying to cover it up and divert attention through smears and lies and trying to bury the story. Someone who is capable of that is unfit for office.

The copper admitted that he took copies of the porn,but those copies are not available now....perhaps the policeman took the copies for his own personal viewing,hehe.
This was legal stuff,it is a witch hunt against Green stoked by the media,there are more important matters to occupy us all that makes this matter insignificant.
Move on,no story here.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

Try .....bonjourmadame.fr......fracture du l'oeil,hehe.
KudosDave

 

[Woosh]

I think we will end up with a Soft Brexit that will be packaged to look like a Hard Brexit.

how will the government do that?
the only deal on offer if the UK insists on no ECJ, no customs union is CETA+, the EU may throw a bone or two in the direction of our banks but that's it, take it or leave it.
We have to wait for Mr Fox to admit defeat before another U turn on customs union, the common denominator for any long lasting solution.

 

[MikelBikel]

may have to wait until after the transition period.
At the moment, hard brexiters still try to hang on to the promise of a good FTA with Donald Trump.
May have to wait for that to be proven not as good as the FTA with the EU. Then the comparison will be between an FTA CETA style and membership of the EEA.

Would the trade 'agreement' likely tween UK & US may be indicated by the 300% tariff imposed on Bombardier in NI re C-series jet !?
And
An interesting episode of BBC 'Any Answers' today had an apparently experienced Ex-UK Customs chap suggesting that the "Trading Arrangements" had to be agreed *before* one would know what sort of customs border to have, or not have. Sounded logical, even if EU insist it be other way round.
Mikel

 

[oldgroaner]

From the Telegraph this morning
"Tories at war over European judges amid claims UK heading for version of Brexit 'that effectively fails to leave EU"

heresa May is heading towards a version of Brexit that effectively fails to withdraw Britain from the European Union, a former senior judge and an 
ex-leader of the Tories have warned.

Sir Richard Aikens, a Court of Appeal judge until 2015, told the Prime Minister that a proposed “compromise” on oversight by the European Court of Justice was “dangerous” and would be “tantamount to reversing the result of the 2016 referendum”.

His warning comes amid a growing Cabinet row over the plans.

In an article for the Telegraph, Iain Duncan Smith, the former Conservative leader and one of the party’s most influential Eurosceptics, agrees with Sir Richard and warns that the move could lead to European judges overseeing trade disputes.

 

[oldgroaner]

From the Daily Mail
"
The £50billion Brexit backlash: Voters say it is too high a price to pay as majority now back a SECOND referendum on final deal as they fear the EU want to 'punish' Britain after May's botched election

• First major opinion poll since it emerged the UK is ready to pay the EU £50bn
• According to the poll, there is no doubt who 'won' the first round of Brexit talks
• 43 per cent said the EU had got the best deal – only 16 per cent said the UK had
• Majority also believe the bill has more to do with vindictiveness than fairnes

So now the Brexit Voters want Referendums to suit anything that takes their fancy, except of course for cancelling Brexit altogether.
It seems that the Murdoch Press are keen to undermine representative Government and replace it with indirect Media controlled Mob rule instead.

 

[Woosh]

An interesting episode of BBC 'Any Answers' today had an apparently experienced Ex-UK Customs chap suggesting that the "Trading Arrangements" had to be agreed *before* one would know what sort of customs border to have, or not have. Sounded logical, even if EU insist it be other way round.
Mikel

Our government can take the position that we will worry about what suits England first, disregarding issues in NI, or obtain prior agreement with NI+ROI before starting to talk about FTA with the EU.
the EU's position is perversely logical to avoid the kind of situations in Wallonia* with CETA. We have also agreed to this order of play.

*Wallonais voted against CETA causing hold up and rewriting some clauses after the EU and Canada have agreed terms.

 

[Woosh]

the Survation poll this week revealed one interesting fact:

Of the 1,003 people surveyed in the Survation poll , 497, or 50 per cent, said they would “support holding a referendum asking the public if they will accept or reject the deal”.

A total of 343, or 34 per cent, said they were against the idea of a public vote, while 164 (16 per cent) said they did not know.
Of the people who were in favour of a referendum on the UK's deal for exiting the EU, 271 (54.5 per cent) had voted Remain in the 2016 Brexit vote, while 145 (29 per cent) voted Leave. Seventy-four (15 per cent) did not vote.
Of those against holding a Brexit deal vote, 78 (23 per cent) had voted Remain, while 224 (65 per cent) voted Leave. Thirty-five (10 per cent) did not vote.

If like me, you wonder how the people who did not vote in the referendum would vote if offered another chance to vote, 74 seem to side with remainers, 35 with brexiters.

http://survation.com/labour-extends-polling-lead-8-points-conservatives/