Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

this EU attitude is converting some Remainers into Leavers.

Which doesn't really matter does it?
When the proverbial hits the fan this spat over the Bill will be long forgotten, and frankly is being blown out of all proportion isn't it?
To play the sympathy card for the Government, and make them look like heroic martyrs.
They are not, just a pack of lying reprobates.
They don't deserve sympathy, they should have paid up, shut up and got on with the negotiations.
They knew the rules and conditions, the EU will not change for them
Why should they? in their position I certainly wouldn't

I would screw the opposition, which is after all what Davis and May are trying to do, no matter how much hot air is generated about poor little England being beaten with a stick.

 

[Danidl]

if you wonder why the £350 millions a week to the NHS hits the mark so well, it is because brexiters see it as their money.
I bet if the EU contribution is paid out of financial transaction tax, nobody would be bothered to vote against it.

. The 350 million was a brilliant marketing stroke, no doubt about it. But a truth?. Any rational trusting person , on seeing how the politicians scrambled away from it , would have said .. never will I trust that person again.

 

[oldgroaner]

then people should ask why the tory government is so keen to veto the financial transaction tax.

Well if they were as clever as you said they were to work out where the money was ending up in the EU, surely the rank and file Brexiters will realise the reasoning behind this move is to benefit the rich?

 

[oldgroaner]

. The 350 million was a brilliant marketing stroke, no doubt about it. But a truth?. Any rational trusting person , on seeing how the politicians scrambled away from it , would have said .. never will I trust that person again.

<Humour Warning>
Congratulations, it takes style to Denigrate 17,410,742 people in so elegant a fashion
For the benefit of those 17,410,742 people Denigrate in this instance means you are irrational.
(Either look that up or ask a friend)
</Humour Warning>

 

[anotherkiwi]

then people should ask why the tory government is so keen to veto the financial transaction tax.

Because tax is only for the less well off, rich speculators don't pay tax (or as little as their accountants can get away with).

 

[Kudoscycles]

To bring this thread onto a relevance to the site we are on. It's starting to look that whatever happens post Brexit e-bikes are going to be much more expensive.
It looks like the EU are going to put a massive anti dumping duty on Chinese bikes imported into the EU (including the UK,at the moment),logic would say that duty is going to be at least 54%,making the duty the same as vanilla bikes,the EBMA wants the duty even higher.
If we stay in the customs union then these tariffs will still apply.
The duty is going to be started 3 months retrospective,the earliest implementation date is July 2018,so the duty could be levied April 2018,such is the time span of order to delivery that bikes ordered now could be duty attracted,which is why many e-bike importers are sitting on their hands,ordering could be costly.
If we crash out then maybe WTO tariffs will apply,that's looking like 14%,unless we have a free trade deal with China.
Whatever happens,in the short term shipping e-bikes from China will be finished,the £1000 nice e-bike will be a distant memory. Many of the bigger Chinese suppliers are looking at assembling e-bike in Europe but which country to choose is a real problem.
If we crash out I assume that e-bikes from Europe will be subject to WTO tariffs,looks like 14%,because these bikes tend to be higher value,the 14% is going to be a larger sum,especially as long as the £ is weak against the Euro.
The logic would be importing parts from China and assembling in the UK but our higher labour rates may negate the tariff savings.
Ironically the e-bike industry could be one of the first directly affected by Brexit.
KudosDave

 

[oldgroaner]

To bring this thread onto a relevance to the site we are on. It's starting to look that whatever happens post Brexit e-bikes are going to be much more expensive.
It looks like the EU are going to put a massive anti dumping duty on Chinese bikes imported into the EU (including the UK,at the moment),logic would say that duty is going to be at least 54%,making the duty the same as vanilla bikes,the EBMA wants the duty even higher.
If we stay in the customs union then these tariffs will still apply.
The duty is going to be started 3 months retrospective,the earliest implementation date is July 2018,so the duty could be levied April 2018,such is the time span of order to delivery that bikes ordered now could be duty attracted,which is why many e-bike importers are sitting on their hands,ordering could be costly.
If we crash out then maybe WTO tariffs will apply,that's looking like 14%,unless we have a free trade deal with China.
Whatever happens,in the short term shipping e-bikes from China will be finished,the £1000 nice e-bike will be a distant memory. Many of the bigger Chinese suppliers are looking at assembling e-bike in Europe but which country to choose is a real problem.
If we crash out I assume that e-bikes from Europe will be subject to WTO tariffs,looks like 14%,because these bikes tend to be higher value,the 14% is going to be a larger sum,especially as long as the £ is weak against the Euro.
The logic would be importing parts from China and assembling in the UK but our higher labour rates may negate the tariff savings.
Ironically the e-bike industry could be one of the first directly affected by Brexit.
KudosDave

Unless someone starts to actually manufacture them in toto here?
Is that conceivable?

 

[anotherkiwi]

To bring this thread onto a relevance to the site we are on. It's starting to look that whatever happens post Brexit e-bikes are going to be much more expensive.
It looks like the EU are going to put a massive anti dumping duty on Chinese bikes imported into the EU (including the UK,at the moment),logic would say that duty is going to be at least 54%,making the duty the same as vanilla bikes,the EBMA wants the duty even higher.
If we stay in the customs union then these tariffs will still apply.
The duty is going to be started 3 months retrospective,the earliest implementation date is July 2018,so the duty could be levied April 2018,such is the time span of order to delivery that bikes ordered now could be duty attracted,which is why many e-bike importers are sitting on their hands,ordering could be costly.
If we crash out then maybe WTO tariffs will apply,that's looking like 14%,unless we have a free trade deal with China.
Whatever happens,in the short term shipping e-bikes from China will be finished,the £1000 nice e-bike will be a distant memory. Many of the bigger Chinese suppliers are looking at assembling e-bike in Europe but which country to choose is a real problem.
If we crash out I assume that e-bikes from Europe will be subject to WTO tariffs,looks like 14%,because these bikes tend to be higher value,the 14% is going to be a larger sum,especially as long as the £ is weak against the Euro.
The logic would be importing parts from China and assembling in the UK but our higher labour rates may negate the tariff savings.
Ironically the e-bike industry could be one of the first directly affected by Brexit.
KudosDave

Today I was in front of a Norauto down south. Wayscral entry level bike 369€ discounted from 399€. Same one in France https://www.norauto.fr/produit/velo-electrique-wayscral-basy-315-noir_906674.html

379€ -20% govt. bonus = 303€

Now I am not an e-bike professional but that looks awfully like dumping to me. Shipping + norauto margin + duties + VAT +... That is a sub 180€ e-bike. You can't buy a hub motor from China for that price (with "free" shipping) to put on a bike you already own.

Oh and it has a 2 year waranty...

Note: the battery is SLA

 

[Woosh]

Today I was in front of a Norauto down south. Wayscral entry level bike 369€ discounted from 399€. Same one in France https://www.norauto.fr/produit/velo-electrique-wayscral-basy-315-noir_906674.html

379€ -20% govt. bonus = 303€

Now I am not an e-bike professional but that looks awfully like dumping to me. Shipping + norauto margin + duties + VAT +... That is a sub 180€ e-bike. You can't buy a hub motor from China for that price (with "free" shipping) to put on a bike you already own.

Oh and it has a 2 year waranty...

Note: the battery is SLA

That bike is a steel frame, cheap motor, 24V SLA.
I know they sell for about $250-275 FOB Shanghai.
And it's not dumping. You can buy the motor for $35, the controller for $13, the LED panel for $10, the 24V SLA battery costs $30, the bike costs less than $100.
If you put that bike next to a Cube or a Haibike, they don't compare.
They are actually quite reliable, they don't go fast so no worries about derestriction there, the bolts and nuts don't get loosened because steel rusts. It suits people who just want a cheap transport that they can leave in the street all day long.

 

[oldgroaner]

That bike is a steel frame, cheap motor, 24V SLA.
I know they sell for about $250-275 FOB Shanghai.
And it's not dumping. You can buy the motor for $35, the controller for $13, the LED panel for $10, the bike costs less than $100.
They are actually quite reliable, they don't go fast so no worries about derestriction there, the bolts and nuts don't get loosened because steel rusts.

Sealed Lead Acid? amazing!
They'll be using Lechlanche cells next!

 

[Woosh]

Sealed Lead Acid? amazing!

yes, the bike weighs 30kgs.

Type de vélo: Vélos ville
Couleur: Noir
Type de cadre: Classique
Matériau du cadre: Acier
Pliable: Non
Longueur (cm): 187
Largeur (cm): 62
Hauteur (cm): 86
Type du moteur: Brushless électrique
Type de moteur: Moteur électrique roue arrière
Chargeur secteur fourni: Oui
Batterie incluse: Oui
Type de batterie: Plomb gel 24V
Puissance maximum (en W): 250
Temps de charge (h): 6
Poids de la batterie (kg): 9
Durée de vie de la batterie: 300 cycles de rechargement
Autonomie en km: 25 à 40 km
Type d'afficheur guidon: LED
Taille des roues (pouces): 26
Poids du vélo (kg): 30
Charge maximale supportée (kg): 110
Type de fourche: Rigide
Transmission: Externe SHIMANO
Nombre de vitesses: 6
Frein avant: Vbrake
Frein arrière: Vbrake
Type de pédales: Standard
Type de pneu: Pneu avec bande réfléchissante
Type d'éclairage: Ampoule
Equipement du vélo: Porte-bagage;;Carter de chaîne intégral;;Béquille;;Sonnette;;Garde-boue arrière;;Garde-boue-avant

 

[oldtom]

this EU attitude is converting some Remainers into Leavers.

Apart possibly from yourself Dave, do you honestly know of any others?

Not one of the people who are part of the campaign group I belong to have changed sides; on the contrary, the number of new inquirers has grown steadily over recent months as more and more people are becoming disillusioned by all the news about matters they previously had no idea about.

Our group has contact with several MPs who share our views and the word coming out of Westminster is that there is a growing body of opinion on both sides of the house that we need to dig ourselves out of the hole we have created - evidently the bean counters from the largest industrialists and banking corporations are putting pressure on their pet MPs and ministers to change tack and rescue the country from the dire prospects now becoming clearer by the day.

Tom

 

[Kudoscycles]

Unless someone starts to actually manufacture them in toto here?
Is that conceivable?

No....Shimano,Bafang,Samsung are very cheap highly developed parts and factories,they have massive volumes satisfying the huge Asian market,if we tried to manufacture 'in toto' here the bikes would be very expensive and the R&D responsibility could be expensive and not necessarily reliable in the early stages.
Even the big German assemblers buy lots of product from Asia....the robotic Chinese frame manufacturers are an impressive operation,they even extrude the tube from raw alloy,that is very expensive tooling.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

Apart possibly from yourself Dave, do you honestly know of any others?

Not one of the people who are part of the campaign group I belong to have changed sides; on the contrary, the number of new inquirers has grown steadily over recent months as more and more people are becoming disillusioned by all the news about matters they previously had no idea about.

Our group has contact with several MPs who share our views and the word coming out of Westminster is that there is a growing body of opinion on both sides of the house that we need to dig ourselves out of the hole we have created - evidently the bean counters from the largest industrialists and banking corporations are putting pressure on their pet MPs and ministers to change tack and rescue the country from the dire prospects now becoming clearer by the day.

Tom

Come on Tom,I have said about 10 times in this thread I am a REMAINER,REMAINER,REMAINER...I am annoyed at the way the EU is currently treating us but would be a very happy man if we had a second referendum and scrapped this Brexit stupidity.
Brexit was caused by the Tory right wing bastards,who I am sure have a big influence on Theresa May,I am sure she would welcome a way out of this mess,she was and probably still is a Remainer,maybe she'll go off on one of her walks and come back and scrap Brexit.
But the direction she seems to be driven looks like selling ourselves cheap or crashing out,neither seems good options but they need to be prepared for.
Does that make my position clear.
KudosDave

 

[oldgroaner]

yes, the bike weighs 30kgs.

Type de vélo: Vélos ville
Couleur: Noir
Type de cadre: Classique
Matériau du cadre: Acier
Pliable: Non
Longueur (cm): 187
Largeur (cm): 62
Hauteur (cm): 86
Type du moteur: Brushless électrique
Type de moteur: Moteur électrique roue arrière
Chargeur secteur fourni: Oui
Batterie incluse: Oui
Type de batterie: Plomb gel 24V
Puissance maximum (en W): 250
Temps de charge (h): 6
Poids de la batterie (kg): 9
Durée de vie de la batterie: 300 cycles de rechargement
Autonomie en km: 25 à 40 km
Type d'afficheur guidon: LED
Taille des roues (pouces): 26
Poids du vélo (kg): 30
Charge maximale supportée (kg): 110
Type de fourche: Rigide
Transmission: Externe SHIMANO
Nombre de vitesses: 6
Frein avant: Vbrake
Frein arrière: Vbrake
Type de pédales: Standard
Type de pneu: Pneu avec bande réfléchissante
Type d'éclairage: Ampoule
Equipement du vélo: Porte-bagage;;Carter de chaîne intégral;;Béquille;;Sonnette;;Garde-boue arrière;;Garde-boue-avant

Can we assume the rear wheel motor is geared? or is it direct drive?

 

[Kudoscycles]

Today I was in front of a Norauto down south. Wayscral entry level bike 369€ discounted from 399€. Same one in France https://www.norauto.fr/produit/velo-electrique-wayscral-basy-315-noir_906674.html

379€ -20% govt. bonus = 303€

Now I am not an e-bike professional but that looks awfully like dumping to me. Shipping + norauto margin + duties + VAT +... That is a sub 180€ e-bike. You can't buy a hub motor from China for that price (with "free" shipping) to put on a bike you already own.

Oh and it has a 2 year waranty...

Note: the battery is SLA

You can buy e-bikes in every supermarket in China for 199.00 dollars,you cannot buy an e-bike in Europe at anything approaching that price and if I bought a batch they would cost more than 200 dollars because I don't have the buying power of the supermarkets.
These products are not dumped,it's just that the big German and Dutch assemblers cannot compete but that is not dumping.
This EU dumping duty will come back and bite the EU,it only needs one of the big Chinese manufacturers to assemble in a low labour cost region of Europe and do a deal with a major supermarket chain and low cost will really mean low cost. Don't forget you can ship 200 bikes in a 40 foot container but in parts probably 1000 bikes.
KudosDave

 

[Woosh]

Can we assume the rear wheel motor is geared? or is it direct drive?

it's a geared hub.
The problem with the ADD complaint from the EMBA is they compare pears and apples. The danger to their members is real, as the e-bike market grows, their members increase production capacity in anticipation. Then comes Bafang with their mid motors at half the Bosch price and they are not the only one muscling in, Shimano, SR and a hundred other smaller Chinese motor assemblers. If you look at spare EU capacity, it's growing alarmingly. The solution is really to contain the mid drive Bafang/Shimano bikes and stop them grabbing further market share and become dominant in the EU.
It does not affect the under £1,000 bikes that we do because we can assemble these hub bikes in the UK quite cheaply.

 

[Danidl]

Come on Tom,I have said about 10 times in this thread I am a REMAINER,REMAINER,REMAINER...I am annoyed at the way the EU is currently treating us but would be a very happy man if we had a second referendum and scrapped this Brexit stupidity.
Brexit was caused by the Tory right wing bastards,who I am sure have a big influence on Theresa May,I am sure she would welcome a way out of this mess,she was and probably still is a Remainer,maybe she'll go off on one of her walks and come back and scrap Brexit.
But the direction she seems to be driven looks like selling ourselves cheap or crashing out,neither seems good options but they need to be prepared for.
Does that make my position clear.
KudosDave

Fully understand your position. Nobody as far as I see in Europe is wanting to humiliate Mrs May. Its all self inflicted. The British cabinet is so internally conflicted that any progress is difficult.
I would welcome a new referendum, or an admission that the time is not opportune

 

[oldgroaner]

Fully understand your position. Nobody as far as I see in Europe is wanting to humiliate Mrs May. Its all self inflicted. The British cabinet is so internally conflicted that any progress is difficult.
I would welcome a new referendum, or an admission that the time is not opportune

Lets face it the Murdoch press are playing this for all it's worth as expected, they will publish anything no matter how biassed or absurd to favour Brexit, and their standards of truthfulness are demostrated here

From the Daily mail which invents whatever News it wants and to hell with facts.
This from AAV.

By the way the British Cabinet isn't so much conflicted as suffering from a Jekyll and Hyde syndrome, as there are clearly two of them occupying the same space/time co-ordinates.

 

[Woosh]

By the way the British Cabinet isn't so much conflicted as suffering from a Jekyll and Hyde syndrome, as there are clearly two of them occupying the same space/time co-ordinates.

quantum cabinet?