Brexit, for once some facts.

Steb

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jul 15, 2017
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Slightly OT bur just had this sent.Quite appropriate ?


" AREGULAR GUY

Well, apart from being past 75 and the pipe, pretty well sums up me and many of my friends and peers. Sad, isn’t it.

This just about sums it up!

I used to think I was just a regular guy, but . . . I was born white, which now, whether I like it or not, makes me a racist.
I am a fiscal and moral conservative, which by today's standards, makes me a fascist.
I am heterosexual, which according to gay folks, now makes me a homophobic.
I am non-union, which makes me a traitor to the working class and an ally of big business.
I am a Christian, which now labels me as an infidel.
I am older than 70, which makes me a useless old man.
I think and I reason, therefore I doubt much that the main stream media tells me, which must make me a reactionary.
I am proud of my heritage and our inclusive culture, which makes me a xenophobe.
I value my safety and that of my family and I appreciate the police and the legal system, which makes me a right-wing extremist.
I believe in hard work, fair play, and fair compensation according to each individual's merits, which today makes me an anti-socialist.
I believe in the defence and protection of the homeland for and by all citizens, which now makes me a militant.
Please help me come to terms with the new me . . because I'm just not sure who I am anymore!
As if all this crap wasn't enough to deal with. I'm now afraid to go into either lavatory!"
???
A correction, you were not 'born white', race is a hypothetical construct without any basis in fact. You may have assumed an ethnic identity on the basis of all kinds of misleading information (do you read the sun?) but don't let that shackle you (it too has no basis in fact).
Something else occurred to me - I don't know whether you're homophobic, but you may be phobic (in the irrational aversion for unthreatening experiences sense, you are the one making the distinctions (white, non-white; hetero, homosexual). If one does not create artificial dichotomies one does not trapped in binary thinking and labels. Which does bring to mind Brexit, the problem with artificial dichotomies being that they can have real consequences (you could spend the rest of your days feeling blue for labouring under the delusion that you're a maligned white heterosexual who cant go to the lavatory) .
 
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oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
I am sure we will all finds ways around the negatives of Brexit,for me the shame is making ourselves more socially isolated,young people will hate that.
I admire your confidence with regard to the negatives but I can't say I share it.

As for the younger generation and the EU ideal, we are bestowing on them a sense of them and us and many will inherit a view that those EU countries have been the cause of all the UK's problems.

The learning of history during formative years is hugely important and a great many of our fellow citizens have only ever received the warped version at school and via the media that perpetuates the myth that Britain alone won WW1 and WW2 and that is only one example.

The brainwashing of its citizens begins at an early age in the UK.

Tom
 
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oldtom

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Danidl

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2016
8,611
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At least some in Ireland haven't lost their sense of humour in spite of the situation they see looming large ahead of them thanks to the UK government.

Down Waterford way, they came up with this recently:

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2017/11/20/queen-prince-philip-celebrate-70th-wedding-anniversary-peasant-hunting/?utm_source=WWN_Facebook_Page&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_campaign=Social_Link&utm_content=Article

Tom
In similar vein could I recommend a YouTube video by Foil Arms and Hogg entitled "wtf is Brexit. "
 
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anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,845
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Slightly OT bur just had this sent.Quite appropriate ?
...
I believe in hard work, fair play, and fair compensation according to each individual's merits, which today makes me an anti-socialist...
Where have you seen that hard, honest graft = fair pay? I haven't experienced that in most of my working life. And there is a difference between merit and capability.

And you have a strange idea of socialism, there is nothing in socialism which excludes working and earning a fair wage depending on ones capability. There is a quite bit about fairness of pay levels for all though.
 

homemoz

Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2007
181
168
UK
In similar vein could I recommend a YouTube video by Foil Arms and Hogg entitled "wtf is Brexit. "
Dan,
Hope you don't mind me asking...but is there any truth in Arlene Foster & David Davies statement that the border is dependent on the trade negotiations and can't be resolved till these take place? It actually seems quite reasonable to me but then I am not familiar enough with the Irish situation to know.
John
 
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oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,461
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The Swiss assessment is absolutely right. It's so sad that half the UK population will need a few years before they finally realise that too.
.
I seem to have passed through several epochs in my time.
First
1. When under a Socialist Government it recovered from the second World war, the NHS was introduced and things got better

2. Things ran along for a while and then took a nose dive, the Country became the "Sick man of Europe" living on IMF loans

3.Then when it was in the EEC and things improved, despite the efforts of the Government, who under Thatcher decided to turn it into a Gambling Den, and all and sundry problems were blamed on the EU.
The Bankers blew that scheme out of the water and the rest of us pay for that daily.

4. And now we have become the "Laughing stock of Europe" .
No Market, still paying off for the bankers and led by a version of Monty Python's Flying Circus.(make that two)
We don't want to pay what we owe and we don't know what we want, as we have effectively two differently disposed Governments in power at the same time, and a ten pack of paid asassins supporting either/or of them.
As they see fit.
Even the opposition can't make their minds up what they really want for fear of upsetting "The will of the people" which was quite likely paid for illegally anyway. by person or states unknown
Whatever Putin/ The Trump backers/ Murdoch / assorted Oligarchs, and he usual culprits among the "Elite" all paid, they certainly got a bargain.
After they finish the " Closing Down everything must go sale" and exterminate the Fox population, what next?
They couldn't run a whelk stall, as they have been provng for years.
Our next move is simple, but will the IMF still be a soft touch to bail us out again?
And of course the general population will happily sit back and accept being treated like non sentient animals, won't they?
 
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Georgew

Pedelecer
Apr 13, 2016
152
185
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Fife Scotland
I don't sell on the e-bay to EU countries,all my e-bay sales are to the home market. I don't think WTO tariffs are going to be any good for the UK but also no good for the EU,30% plus on food,10% on cars but engineering items are low tariff. We can grow more at home but exports to the EU for our farmers will be difficult,maybe that will end up good for our farmers.
Maybe the German car manufacturers will have to set up assembling plants in the UK to satisfy only the UK and avoid the tariffs.
I am sure we will all finds ways around the negatives of Brexit,for me the shame is making ourselves more socially isolated,young people will hate that.
KudosDave
Errrrm..OK.......

"Few industries face greater direct impact from Brexit than agriculture and Scottish farmers warn that their sector is already fragile. The net income from the agriculture industry in Scotland dropped from £837m in 2013 to an estimated £667m in 2015.

Nearly three-quarters of that net income came from subsidies, according to the NFUS, meaning any reduction of CAP payments could render many farms completely unviable. The single market is also crucial, with Scotland’s non-whisky food exports to the EU worth £724m in 2015, more than two-thirds of the total sold outside the UK. "

Sounds reasonable.....:rolleyes:
 

Danidl

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2016
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Dan,
Hope you don't mind me asking...but is there any truth in Arlene Foster & David Davies statement that the border is dependent on the trade negotiations and can't be resolved till these take place? It actually seems quite reasonable to me but then I am not familiar enough with the Irish situation to know.
John
There is of course some truth in it. But that presupposes that the current arrangements regarding almost everything remain in place. Trade negotiations are much too crude an instrument. We have many thousands of our people living on one side of the border and working on the other. We have mothers in the south who traditionally have had their babies in the north. Generations of northern folk have had their university education in Dublin. We have a similar pattern of agriculture north and south, different from the methods in England. Family run farms not owned by conglomerates. We have different animal health regimes. We have an agricultural sector where milk might pass through the border multiple times in processing from raw product to chocolate crumb or infant milk powder.High quality food is not a myth and is a valued global selling point. Rivers and streams don't respect the border, and nor does flooding. I could go on and on

potted history..
Prior to 1922, Ireland was a united entity, and families and enterprises , retail distribution had an all Ireland dimension. From then until 1969 there was an economic border, with southern Ireland being more agricultural less industrial,. From 1970, the border became both security and economic, because of different tax rates on different goods in the two jurisdictions, there was extensive smuggling, and a gangster element became wealthy. Despite brave efforts by security forces on both sides, the border was very porous for smuggling. . The border looked more like the iron curtain with towers on high ground, gunboats stationed on the Loughs . Armed checkpoints with attendant delays at specific points.
It is only post 1996 , that the economic promise of the single market and borderless commuting has been realised.

Under the GF agreement, all the people in NI have the right to become Irish passport holders, and EU citizens, any time into the future.even after Brexit .. (they are currently EU citizens. ). This is one of the consitutional issues not yet even contemplated.
That Mr Davies cannot grasp the complexities is forgivable but that Ms Foster won't is unacceptable.
Irrespective of what type of trade deal is cobbled together these other complexities remain. The absurdity of having no border at the boundary of two diverging major economies will eventually sink into the UK mindset.
 

homemoz

Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2007
181
168
UK
There is of course some truth in it. But that presupposes that the current arrangements regarding almost everything remain in place. Trade negotiations are much too crude an instrument. We have many thousands of our people living on one side of the border and working on the other. We have mothers in the south who traditionally have had their babies in the north. Generations of northern folk have had their university education in Dublin. We have a similar pattern of agriculture north and south, different from the methods in England. Family run farms not owned by conglomerates. We have different animal health regimes. We have an agricultural sector where milk might pass through the border multiple times in processing from raw product to chocolate crumb or infant milk powder.High quality food is not a myth and is a valued global selling point. Rivers and streams don't respect the border, and nor does flooding. I could go on and on

potted history..
Prior to 1922, Ireland was a united entity, and families and enterprises , retail distribution had an all Ireland dimension. From then until 1969 there was an economic border, with southern Ireland being more agricultural less industrial,. From 1970, the border became both security and economic, because of different tax rates on different goods in the two jurisdictions, there was extensive smuggling, and a gangster element became wealthy. Despite brave efforts by security forces on both sides, the border was very porous for smuggling. . The border looked more like the iron curtain with towers on high ground, gunboats stationed on the Loughs . Armed checkpoints with attendant delays at specific points.
It is only post 1996 , that the economic promise of the single market and borderless commuting has been realised.

Under the GF agreement, all the people in NI have the right to become Irish passport holders, and EU citizens, any time into the future.even after Brexit .. (they are currently EU citizens. ). This is one of the consitutional issues not yet even contemplated.
That Mr Davies cannot grasp the complexities is forgivable but that Ms Foster won't is unacceptable.
Irrespective of what type of trade deal is cobbled together these other complexities remain. The absurdity of having no border at the boundary of two diverging major economies will eventually sink into the UK mindset.
Thanks for this. Will need some time to digest it all but it answers my question pretty well. Thought that it would be more complex than DD & AF seemed to suggest. I can see where DD is coming from but don't get Arlene Foster's position considering all that you've said.
 
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Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
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And if they are not?

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk
Then we have to cope with it...I have a feeling that businessman like myself will find a way though this mess...I didnt want Brexit and even now hope it will be scrapped,but these things have a momentum of their own.
The initial £ v dollar weakness took 6 months to overcome but at the moment the strong Euro v £ is boosting exports,the end result will be average year to very good year,the £ v dollar has recovered to an ok level.
I just dont know how our unemployable are going to survive if Rees Mogg has his way and reduces the dole down to Singaporean level-that is 30% of the lowest subsistence level....but man from Huddersfield will still be happy,after all he won the vote and I lost it,hehe !!!!
I dont think that was written on the red bus,maybe the other side.!!!
KudosDave
 

Zlatan

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 26, 2016
8,086
4,290
A correction, you were not 'born white', race is a hypothetical construct without any basis in fact. You may have assumed an ethnic identity on the basis of all kinds of misleading information (do you read the sun?) but don't let that shackle you (it too has no basis in fact).
Something else occurred to me - I don't know whether you're homophobic, but you may be phobic (in the irrational aversion for unthreatening experiences sense, you are the one making the distinctions (white, non-white; hetero, homosexual). If one does not create artificial dichotomies one does not trapped in binary thinking and labels. Which does bring to mind Brexit, the problem with artificial dichotomies being that they can have real consequences (you could spend the rest of your days feeling blue for labouring under the delusion that you're a maligned white heterosexual who cant go to the lavatory) .
As I mentioned in post I said I,d had quote sent to me, so obviously I did not write it..and if you or the folk who hit the like button for your as normal aggressive post had bothered to read my earlier posts you,d know I wasn't born white..I posted quote in irony.( I,m Jamaican by birth , hence the " quite appropriate" question mark...)
Seems folk forget things quickly.

So yes Steb I wasn't born white, you are correct. ( To be fair I think Steb appeared after my saying this )
And neither am I 75...and I don't smoke a pipe. Doesn't take much reasoning to see quote originated stateside. ( The wording?)

Anyhow, back OT. I suspect there are lots of remainers and labour voters now wishing May had a stronger government. Tory,labour or whatever political leaning you have I think we,d all be in a better position at moment with a strong majority government. A weak May and or tory government just translates to a weaker bargaining position, which wasn't strong to start with.
 
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Zlatan

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 26, 2016
8,086
4,290
Awful lot of negative vibes in this thread - lighten up everyone!!

£660 million extra for Northern Ireland.....on top of the extra cash already secured through DUP confidence and supply deal.

Yaaaayyyy !
Yep, just back from a day on sea. Really light wind but sunny and 20 degrees. Menu del dia...10 euro...3 course including wine...its a hard life.
( and what's more to point no mini strokes, engine break downs, drownings or folk overboard..)
 
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