Given that we have been instrumental in destroying most of the middle east and the global economy (and that's deliberately only squinting at the last twenty or so years, looking further back is simply too embarrassing) the 13%representation may be quite opportune, a neutral observer may well argue its time we learn something about cooperation instead of continuing as the terrible narcissistic infant we've been
Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
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When birds migrate it's just a free few at first then the main body follow, it will be the same with banks, for what is the incentive to remain in a backwater?
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This whole "we are 13% so we don't have our say" is getting a bit boring. The UK has lost any credibility or influence it could have had in EU governance by not electing hard working honest MEPs. They are the voice of the UK people in the EU parliament and if they aren't participating well tough luck for you.
The voting in the EU is done by group so you have a conservative group and surprise surprise their view point is basically the same viewpoint as your UK government. How strange, conservatives from all over a continent who share common points of view and world view, who would have thought...
While you are out reading up on how the EU works check out how the US works - State government, Federal government the way the roles of each come into play in daily life. The US is supposed to be the model of democracy and capitalism but I (and some others) feel they have recently lost the plot.
The voting in the EU is done by group so you have a conservative group and surprise surprise their view point is basically the same viewpoint as your UK government. How strange, conservatives from all over a continent who share common points of view and world view, who would have thought...
While you are out reading up on how the EU works check out how the US works - State government, Federal government the way the roles of each come into play in daily life. The US is supposed to be the model of democracy and capitalism but I (and some others) feel they have recently lost the plot.
And presumably the rest of EU, specifically France, has been absolutely fine.
Our colonial ambitions were killed stone dead by end of second world war, we,d realised the game was up and worked towards where we are today. Everybody turns a blind eye to France and De Gaulle. He actually stated France could never be a powerful nation without expanding its influence in Indo China ..and promptly attempted to invade Vietnam..( where he got his ass kicked)...they then ( the French) convinced USA Vietnam would become communist without their intervention ( a complete lie America fell for)
On the democracy issue..it seems we all accept there is a problem with representation as Union becomes larger...so lets make it massive...
As for you knowing your MEP, that's very good of you but why should I have to get to know mine...I,m happy enough with my MP thanks..( dont worry though your MEP will be going soon) He had precious little influence in Brussels any way, way less than his counterpart at Westminster.
No matter how many times we visit problems with EU and dig farrow even deeper , the problems still remain. I,m not that keen on people in Albanie, Luxembourg etc etc having as much say as me what happens in UK, and collectively they have way more sway. Again, thanks but no thanks. I,m very happy with Westminster and all its faults, we just dont need more politicians , European especially.
It seems to me more people think along lines I do, we had a referendum about it you know.
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We didn't realise anything of the sort and grimly hung on to the overseas possessions to the bitter end. It was the USA's determination to end all colonialism, as they'd already ended Spain's pre war, that meant we were forced to comply in order to get post war aid. Even after that we still desperately hung on to the scraps that were left, Rhodesia in 1965 for example, and years later The Falklands in the 1980s.
Of course it wasn't a lie, Vietnam is communist to this day. It was going to end up that way with or without either French or US intervention.
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Ho Chi Min wanted originally to establish Ametican based democracy.Their first independence constitution was a copy of American. Crass decisions and intervention by the French forced him.to seek help from the Chinese. Just post war American OSS actually trained Viet Minh.
French turned to UK for help, we refused and put in place our extraction from Burma. America sided with France in a bid to unite Europe against Soviets. The villain of the entire episode was France and specifically DeGaulle. ( Look how many French were killed in Vietnam, it constitutes their biggest military disaster outside World wars)
Falklands was completely different. Its a stupid parallel and you know it. British colonial ambitions post WW2 pale into insignificance at side of French, you know enough about history to know that too.
Yet, its Brits who get labelled colonial. BS.
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Do you not get embarrassed being so wrong, so often?
From the drivel you quote about the EU, I have to think you really don't understand its structures and you are simply regurgitating the kind of stuff you get in 'Sun/Mail' headlines.....and probably at your lodge meetings.
Seriously, you would do yourself a favour by doing some research into the EU, its history and its structures. The stupid, well-hackneyed expression about 'faceless bureaucrats' is simply a lie. In the course of a little research, you will discover that all the main players most certainly do have faces and they have all been revealed in official photo shoots. If you should alternatively wish to condemn 'unelected officials', you will discover that the said officials have been appointed to specific posts from within the ranks of elected members, so that would be another lie.
While what we understand about the world of business, trade and commerce, which we refer to as capitalism, is the way all the countries on mainland Europe and indeed, most of the world interacts, the EU in spite of housing some very capitalist-minded people, is a model of equity, democracy and presents a framework within which capitalism can flourish.
Don't take my word for it - read about it.
Tom
BS.Anybody who believes this rubbish might think they know about models of democracy but are clueless with simple arithmetic.
Our 1 representative commissioner ( out of 28) represents our 60 million population...Its democracy by name alone.
Yes , his vote carries slightly more weight than 1/28...It carries 13%...leaving 87% voting power in the hands of the other 27...
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I didn't say they didn't. But you are still discounting the US pressure that made us reluctantly lose the colonial rule. The French and de Gaulle in particular were made of tougher stuff, always opposing US intervention in what they regarded as their business.
However, at least once the French departed from their colonies they accepted that. Very different from the way we have continued to try to influence them through forming a Commonwealth of those nations, using that as a way to try to force them to conform to our will.
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Degaulle must have been some operator there he was at his conception even prior to his birth arguing for French indo China. And low and behold by his birth the state of indochine including Vietnam was in place !.
The U.K. problem with the European union is precisely that... it's problem. For years your country has decided to be represented by Muppets, and choose to view it under the jaundiced eye of a highly partisan press. It is no wonder you as a people became disillusioned
Yes , I agree flecc. The Anericans were anti colonial post WW2 and as such people should get to know what part the French played in Americans getting involved in Vietnam.
The Japanese kicked the French out. Viet Minh inherited Vietnam post Hiroshima. French re invaded 1946 under DeGaulle, who at time said a great power like France needed colonies.
I,ve said all along post WW2.
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Easily, because you edited your post after I posted the Disagree. I posted that when all you'd posted was "BS", no figures included.
Now you've added figures I've removed the Disagree since those figures are factual. However I still disagree with your opposing stance on this matter since, unlike you, I understand why there has to be a Commission formed that way. I have of course previously explained that to you.
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And long, long before, for the whole of the 20th century in fact. In the first part of the century they drove the Spanish out of their colonies by warfare, such places as the Phillippines for example.
The Americans have two phobias, Colonialism and Communism, and will go to any lengths to wipe out either, whether they are real or imagined. .
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Yes, again quite true but Vietnam was well on its way to becoming a democracy under Ho Chi Min in 1945/6 and under American OSS guidance. The Vietnamese were wanting to be recognised and nobody did. The French marched in, drove Ho Chi Min north. Americans were in a quandary and very worried about Europe being strong to counter Soviets so reluctantly backed French ( eventually)
Without the French invasion Vietnam would have been a democratic nation from 1946. Chinese then helped Viet Minh...leading to America taking up struggle in name of anti communism.
Your original post referred to UK colonial involvement post ww2. No reference to France post WW2. . As France had been the occupying power for 60 + years, and had only been kicked out by the Japanese for 4, they would have claimed they were reoccupying that which was theirs. In the same way as when the courts decide and evict squatters. ... Not agreeing , but it was no different from the English reasserting authority over the channel islands, Burma and other colonies .
Possibly, but we can't sure with both Chinese and Russian interfering influences driving any dissatisfacted element towards communism, Korea for example, a mess to this day. Vietnam could still have tumbled into communism, it was after all Vietnamese forces that took over the country when the American were driven out, not Chinese.
It's an irony that it's the western forces of capitalism that's doing the very same thing in the opposite direction now. For example the US interference, aided by the EU, in the internal affairs of the countries encircling western Russia that's led to both wars and chaos in The Ukraine and Georgia, The Crimea opting to shift camps and the present East-West tensions.
Truly humans never learn.
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Whatever their justification does not take away the fact French had very strong colonial desires and were willing to kill thousands enforcing them..( until they were totally out manoevered by Giap and suffered thousands upon thousands of their own dead.