Brexit, for once some facts.

PeterL

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 19, 2017
998
172
Dundee
Lets start by saying that I was born during the war, was brought up on rationing and have known hunger, and lived on meagre rations wearing hand me downs.

I don't anticipate that we will fall back to that level, if we did then with the mindset of this generation and it's expectations from life, we would have a bloody civil war on our hands.

This is no longer the definition of being poor. poverty is a measure of comparison between the life style of the rich and the expectations of the poor, and clearly outlined for reference on the internet.

The lack of long term stability in the life of modern people where employment is no better than it was when we had queues at the Factory Gates and Docks hoping to pick up a day's pay and there was no unemployment benefit are clearly looming on the horizon.

The solution is of course to organise society so that work is provided that can allow a stable life to ensue, rather than engage in financial stunts and swindles that keep the pockets of the rich filled.

We need to become a manufacturing nation again, that actually owns it's own industrila base, not just relies on a temporarily borrowed one.
Much better OG and as I am year older than you, I've been there too. There, for me, was Liverpool, about as tough as it could be I suppose? Anyway, through the smog and the poverty we had good times. We lived in a community, where people looked out for others. So, we can agree, things have got much better for many of us. We had opportunities to better ourselves, I'm not aware of anyone holding us back. OK, I didn't get into Marlborough College, some might say that's because the stupid son of the local Mayor was in my class, yet he did. Who knows, but there again who cares? Mother did I'm sure, but not me, I managed to drag myself up and now I have a Audi A8 Steb!

Having things on a plate is the preserve of the rich, always was and always will be - get used to it. Nobody should expect the state to totally provide and take responsibility. We can't afford it and more to the point, it's not good for people. That's a general statement, of course, there will always be some who do need all the care and attention they deserve.
 
  • Dislike
  • Like
Reactions: oldtom and Zlatan

PeterL

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 19, 2017
998
172
Dundee
Actually I didn't repond to your post, as I never saw the programme, though it seems others did.
I doubt that, very much.

Now you know where I came from let me commend the program to you. It started off explaining how the populations of the major cities, outside of London have seriously declined leaving swathes of empty houses and such, whereas London has increased in size and houses are now so small as to be little more than a kitchenette. It can take ten hours to move freight from the new Liverpool container port to Leeds... That's not to say these things aren't being addressed but perhaps not with the urgency George Osborne would have liked, or me!
 

PeterL

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 19, 2017
998
172
Dundee
We need to become a manufacturing nation again, that actually owns it's own industrial base, not just relies on a temporarily borrowed one.
We do, but how? Who would be able to afford what we make? It's a given that Robots are the workers, not people. So we will certainly need a lot more programers. Here's a good insight:

Construction industry must embrace tech revolution to avoid a cliff edge



The construction industry stands at a crossroads. We are quite simply not keeping up with the pace of technological change.

Advancements in robotics and automated manufacturing, data analytics and virtual reality are radically transforming the sector and indeed the whole economy. Yet all is not lost. Thefourth industrial revolution – or “Industry 4.0” –could improve productivity levels in construction, increase the number of highly skilled jobs and transform the way that we as a country deliver some of the biggest and most complex infrastructure projects of the future.

Advanced technologies will be integral to projects such asHeathrow expansion, Crossrail 2 and Northern Powerhouse Rail. New and evolutionary infrastructure projects are vital in creating a favourable environment for investment, so are important particularly in times of political and economic uncertainty.

New construction technologies may also contribute to solving the housing crisis, which is arguably the single biggest social policy challenge facing the nation. The UK has no choice but to adapt. A recent CITB report highlights how the construction workforce is likely to change. It suggests that to meet the expected output to 2021, the industry needs to recruit 5,240 employees every year in the occupation category defined as “non-construction professional, technical, IT and other office-based staff”. This annual recruitment rate is almost twice as high as any other job specification. It far outstrips the need for plasterers, construction trades supervisors and even architects.

A report by Mace, theBritish consultancy and construction company that I lead, supports this thesis. It highlights that as many as 600,000 construction sector jobs could be replaced by technology in the next two decades depending on speed of technological transformation. There would be significant reductions in the numbers of labourers, bricklayers, roofers and wood tradesmen across the nation, producing new jobs requiring new skills.

It is therefore crucial that the construction industry works to attract, retrain and up-skill the current and future construction workforce in order to fill the jobs created by advanced technology. To avoid a cliff edge this training must start now.

Jobs for robots| How the rise of automation is taking hold
  • Premier Foods has introduced 47 robots to pack Mr Kipling cakes
  • Japan’s Nagaski became the first hotel to be staffed by robots
  • Google’s Boston Dynamics was originally set up to create robots for military use
  • Remote-controlled robots designed by Toshiba were sent in to help clean up the Fukushima nuclear plant
  • The University of California in San Francisco has introduced robotic pharmacists which so far have zero errors dispensing 350,000 doses
  • In farming, Wall-Ye vine-picking robots have been introduced in France to help with cutting, pruning and harvesting
  • The mining sector is turning to robots to reach remote and treacherous areas
In our report, we provide an ambitious plan to help create a workforce fit for the future. To begin with, the sector will need to embark on a large-scale, innovative training programme which starts in schools and goes right through to formal retraining. Engagement with new technologies must form a core part of the training programme and early use of groundbreaking technologies in schools should be promoted.

Early interaction with augmented and virtual reality, as well as 3D printing technologies, will develop students’ understanding of new technology from a young age.

Secondly, the non-academic routes through the post-16 education system are very important to the construction industry. These routes are currently undergoing significant reform, from implementing a series of recommendations to technical education made by a panel led by Lord Sainsbury, to the overhaul that is changing the apprenticeship system. On paper, these reforms are well thought through and make sense. However, given the rate of innovation and technological advancement that is now happening, there is a question about how the content of any route through post-16 education can remain relevant. Both traditional apprenticeships and the design of the new “trailblazer” programmes must incorporate the future need for a multi-skilled, adaptive workforce.

Thirdly, there needs to be greater provision for retraining and informing life decisions in all sectors. There should be increased focus on labour market intelligence which can inform construction firms how best to up-skill their workforce to meet future technological changes. This could include experimenting with the data that central government collects. For example, HMRC payroll data could provide insights into how construction firms are managing their workforce, and aid the design of policy.

Industry 4.0 will transform the construction sector, providing greater levels of quality, precision and safety than ever before. New technologies and systems will drive innovation that will enable the sector to overcome its long-term productivity problem. If the construction sector is successful in evolving and adapting,the productivity boostcould be worth an additional £25bn to the UK economy.

The UK is a lower mid-table country for productivity
upload_2017-10-31_10-1-44.png

Gross value added per hour worked 2015, % below or above UK's score

nnovations in the sector will contribute to solving some of the biggest global challenges in the world, from designing smart cities and improving air quality levels to increasing energy efficiency in buildings and improving wellbeing with good-quality design.

The construction industry is on the tipping point of radical change. Instead of bemoaning the challenges that lie ahead, the sector must embrace the opportunities that technological advancements will offer. But we need to work in partnership with policymakers, education institutions and each other to ensure that the UK does not fall behind its international competitors. We can do this by harnessing our efforts to ensure that we have a highly-skilled workforce, ready to meet the new and exciting challenges that lie ahead.

Mark Reynolds is chief executive of Mace, the British consultancy and construction company

Rise of the robot brickie: Automation could wipe out 600,000 construction jobs by 2040

New research from Mace predicts 600,000 of the current 2.2m positions in the industry could be automated by 2040 as the “Fourth Industrial Revolution” turns the sector on its head.

One of the hardest-hit jobs in the industry is forecast to be bricklaying, with the current 73,000 people doing the job on UK building sites expected to tumble to just 4,300.

By 2040 there will be just 15,500 carpenters and internal fitters, down from 263,000 now, and the number of labourers will plummet from 127,000 to 7,500. Painters and decorators will also be driven out with just 6,500 positions expected in two decades, compared with the current 111,000 roles, according to the study’s forecasts.
 
Last edited:
  • Dislike
  • Like
Reactions: robdon and Zlatan

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
20,043
16,741
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
New research from Mace predicts 600,000 of the current 2.2m positions in the industry could be automated by 2040 as the “Fourth Industrial Revolution” turns the sector on its head.
ways too one-sided.
It takes the automotive industries decades to make sufficient progress for driverless trains, buses and now trucks and cars.
I am convinced that the next stage of our evolution is technology led but on the introduction of robots into the workplace, the rate of displacement is likely to be less than 1 per thousand per year.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: flecc

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,054
30,510
We do, but how? Who would be able to afford what we make? It's a given that Robots are the workers, not people. So we will certainly need a lot more programers. Here's a good insight:

Construction industry must embrace tech revolution to avoid a cliff edge



The construction industry stands at a crossroads. We are quite simply not keeping up with the pace of technological change.

Advancements in robotics and automated manufacturing, data analytics and virtual reality are radically transforming the sector and indeed the whole economy. Yet all is not lost. Thefourth industrial revolution – or “Industry 4.0” –could improve productivity levels in construction, increase the number of highly skilled jobs and transform the way that we as a country deliver some of the biggest and most complex infrastructure projects of the future.

Advanced technologies will be integral to projects such asHeathrow expansion, Crossrail 2 and Northern Powerhouse Rail. New and evolutionary infrastructure projects are vital in creating a favourable environment for investment, so are important particularly in times of political and economic uncertainty.

New construction technologies may also contribute to solving the housing crisis, which is arguably the single biggest social policy challenge facing the nation. The UK has no choice but to adapt. A recent CITB report highlights how the construction workforce is likely to change. It suggests that to meet the expected output to 2021, the industry needs to recruit 5,240 employees every year in the occupation category defined as “non-construction professional, technical, IT and other office-based staff”. This annual recruitment rate is almost twice as high as any other job specification. It far outstrips the need for plasterers, construction trades supervisors and even architects.

A report by Mace, theBritish consultancy and construction company that I lead, supports this thesis. It highlights that as many as 600,000 construction sector jobs could be replaced by technology in the next two decades depending on speed of technological transformation. There would be significant reductions in the numbers of labourers, bricklayers, roofers and wood tradesmen across the nation, producing new jobs requiring new skills.

It is therefore crucial that the construction industry works to attract, retrain and up-skill the current and future construction workforce in order to fill the jobs created by advanced technology. To avoid a cliff edge this training must start now.

Jobs for robots| How the rise of automation is taking hold
  • Premier Foods has introduced 47 robots to pack Mr Kipling cakes
  • Japan’s Nagaski became the first hotel to be staffed by robots
  • Google’s Boston Dynamics was originally set up to create robots for military use
  • Remote-controlled robots designed by Toshiba were sent in to help clean up the Fukushima nuclear plant
  • The University of California in San Francisco has introduced robotic pharmacists which so far have zero errors dispensing 350,000 doses
  • In farming, Wall-Ye vine-picking robots have been introduced in France to help with cutting, pruning and harvesting
  • The mining sector is turning to robots to reach remote and treacherous areas
In our report, we provide an ambitious plan to help create a workforce fit for the future. To begin with, the sector will need to embark on a large-scale, innovative training programme which starts in schools and goes right through to formal retraining. Engagement with new technologies must form a core part of the training programme and early use of groundbreaking technologies in schools should be promoted.

Early interaction with augmented and virtual reality, as well as 3D printing technologies, will develop students’ understanding of new technology from a young age.

Secondly, the non-academic routes through the post-16 education system are very important to the construction industry. These routes are currently undergoing significant reform, from implementing a series of recommendations to technical education made by a panel led by Lord Sainsbury, to the overhaul that is changing the apprenticeship system. On paper, these reforms are well thought through and make sense. However, given the rate of innovation and technological advancement that is now happening, there is a question about how the content of any route through post-16 education can remain relevant. Both traditional apprenticeships and the design of the new “trailblazer” programmes must incorporate the future need for a multi-skilled, adaptive workforce.

Thirdly, there needs to be greater provision for retraining and informing life decisions in all sectors. There should be increased focus on labour market intelligence which can inform construction firms how best to up-skill their workforce to meet future technological changes. This could include experimenting with the data that central government collects. For example, HMRC payroll data could provide insights into how construction firms are managing their workforce, and aid the design of policy.

Industry 4.0 will transform the construction sector, providing greater levels of quality, precision and safety than ever before. New technologies and systems will drive innovation that will enable the sector to overcome its long-term productivity problem. If the construction sector is successful in evolving and adapting,the productivity boostcould be worth an additional £25bn to the UK economy.

The UK is a lower mid-table country for productivity
View attachment 21948

Gross value added per hour worked 2015, % below or above UK's score

nnovations in the sector will contribute to solving some of the biggest global challenges in the world, from designing smart cities and improving air quality levels to increasing energy efficiency in buildings and improving wellbeing with good-quality design.

The construction industry is on the tipping point of radical change. Instead of bemoaning the challenges that lie ahead, the sector must embrace the opportunities that technological advancements will offer. But we need to work in partnership with policymakers, education institutions and each other to ensure that the UK does not fall behind its international competitors. We can do this by harnessing our efforts to ensure that we have a highly-skilled workforce, ready to meet the new and exciting challenges that lie ahead.

Mark Reynolds is chief executive of Mace, the British consultancy and construction company

Rise of the robot brickie: Automation could wipe out 600,000 construction jobs by 2040

New research from Mace predicts 600,000 of the current 2.2m positions in the industry could be automated by 2040 as the “Fourth Industrial Revolution” turns the sector on its head.

One of the hardest-hit jobs in the industry is forecast to be bricklaying, with the current 73,000 people doing the job on UK building sites expected to tumble to just 4,300.

By 2040 there will be just 15,500 carpenters and internal fitters, down from 263,000 now, and the number of labourers will plummet from 127,000 to 7,500. Painters and decorators will also be driven out with just 6,500 positions expected in two decades, compared with the current 111,000 roles, according to the study’s forecasts.
I agree with Woosh, there's gross exaggeration in the figures. In bricklaying, plastering and decorating they fail to take into account all the maintenance and repair needs. It's all very well citing Crossrail and other such huge projects, but probably more than half of all present construction related jobs in the UK are in repair and maintenance which robotics can never handle.
.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: oldtom and robdon

PeterL

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 19, 2017
998
172
Dundee
ways too one-sided.
It takes the automotive industries decades to make sufficient progress for driverless trains, buses and now trucks and cars.
I am convinced that the next stage of our evolution is technology led but on the introduction of robots into the workplace, the rate of displacement is likely to be less than 1 per thousand per year.
Possibly, but the rate of change in just about anything has been exponential. Look at how far the phone has gone in just about 30 years - similar time-span.

You say decades for driverless yet the technology can't have been much more than a pipe-dream that long ago. That said, the Docklands Light Railway was driverless and up and running decades ago, albeit carefully contained on rails.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,054
30,510
We lived in a community, where people looked out for others.
I and my family didn't enjoy that benefit. With an Italian father and surname and a German woman living next door you might imagine how we were shunned during and for a long time after World War 2. And it didn't stop in the home area for my brother and I, the discrimination and unfair treatment continued at school from both pupils and schoolteachers.

That of course coloured my future, accounting for my lifelong bitter hatred of any trace of racism and bigotry.
.
 
  • Informative
  • Like
Reactions: robdon and oldtom

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
20,043
16,741
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
That said, the Docklands Light Railway was driverless and up and running decades ago, albeit carefully contained on rails.
at the moment, our programming skills are just enough to recognize a ping pong ball in a ping pong game. To make a robot capable of bricklaying, you need a human level of general intelligence, that's at a very least 50-150 years of software development.
 

PeterL

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 19, 2017
998
172
Dundee
I and my family didn't enjoy that benefit. With an Italian father and surname and a German woman living next door you might imagine how we were shunned during and for a long time after World War 2. And it didn't stop in the home area for my brother and I, the discrimination and unfair treatment continued at school from both pupils and schoolteachers.

That of course coloured my future, accounting for my lifelong bitter hatred of any trace of racism and bigotry.
.
That is very sad, I never experienced such, in either direction I should add. But, your German neighbour must have experienced the brunt of that?
 

PeterL

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 19, 2017
998
172
Dundee
at the moment, our programming skills are just enough to recognize a ping pong ball in a ping pong game. To make a robot capable of bricklaying, you need a human level of general intelligence, that's at a very least 50-150 years of software development.
Well there we go. So, that just requires 150 monkeys working for a year, or better still 300 for six months?

Or read Trends in Robotics and Automation in Construction
 
Last edited:

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
20,043
16,741
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
Well there we go. So, that just requires 150 monkeys working for a year, or better still 300 for six months?
some American professor said something like that back in the 60s when I was still at uni. Hopelessly optimistic.
We currently employ about 18-20 million computer programmers worldwide. The numbers will continue to increase, but even so, the task is huge. In our lifetime, it is reasonable to expect that robots will be able to recognize shapes and objects but to build software for decision making is a lot harder. Where will you stop on ethics for example? Will you allow robots to create their own codes and hardware?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: flecc

PeterL

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 19, 2017
998
172
Dundee
some American professor said something like that back in the 60s when I was still at uni. Hopelessly optimistic.
We currently employ about 18-20 million computer programmers worldwide. The numbers will continue to increase, but even so, the task is huge. In our lifetime, it is reasonable to expect that robots will be able to recognize shapes and objects but to build software for decision making is a lot harder. Where will you stop on ethics for example?
Added a reference to the earlier post - they already have robots that can bricklay and do carpentry.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,054
30,510
You say decades for driverless yet the technology can't have been much more than a pipe-dream that long ago.
It's actually been around for a surprisingly long time, the USA have for years had cross country long distance rally events for driverless cars.

The biggest problems are and will remain for a long time the legal aspect. Accidents will inevitably happen and who do we accuse and claim from. We can't cross examine cars in courts, do we sue the makers, the suppliers, those who type approved, the maintainers. It's not a simple problem, the more closely it's examined the more difficulties are exposed.

And what about the trend to greater driver responsibility with beneficial advances such as crossroads without traffic lights and combined pedestrian and vehicle areas without marked roads. They call for instantly and constantly changing ethical human judgements impossible to match with robotics having no ultimate responsibility

And until these problems are solved not a single driverless car will be on the public streets without a human driver with overriding control.
.
.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: robdon and Woosh

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
20,043
16,741
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
Added a reference to the earlier post - they already have robots that can bricklay and do carpentry.
only for demonstration.
Until you can have robots capable of conversing with humans, the robots thing is still oversold.
 
  • Agree
  • Disagree
Reactions: Danidl and flecc

PeterL

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 19, 2017
998
172
Dundee
only for demonstration.
Until you can have robots capable of conversing with humans, the robots thing is still oversold.
I take you mean in real time? They already converse, in this respect, directly from the drawings of the architect. Quite why you feel a need for the site foreman to be able to direct such a robot escapes me though. I guess in the operating theatre I would still prefer that the surgeon was present, much like a pilot on an airplane but as we both know a plane can easily take off, fly to its destination and safely land - all on its own, in any weather.

Much the same with autonomous cars and lorries, I can certainly see the concerns, in the short-term addressed by having convoys of lorries on motorways. Cars much the same with full autonomy easily achieved on a motorway. Long-term who knows, but would seem more than likely to me and especially so in large urban areas.
 

Danidl

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2016
8,611
12,256
73
Ireland
at the moment, our programming skills are just enough to recognize a ping pong ball in a ping pong game. To make a robot capable of bricklaying, you need a human level of general intelligence, that's at a very least 50-150 years of software development.
Woosh .. I think that that is both understating the current status of sensor technology, the ability of software and exaggerated belief in the set of skills needed to do the tasks. A colleague of mine had robotic assisted surgery on his prostate some 5 years ago... The placement of those knives ,and the propensity to do serious damages to items we hold dear, will dwarf any similar concerns about putting concrete blocks in a row.
More realistic is that robotic technologies make it feasible to use different forms. .. the 3d printing of the house in Nantes a case in point. .. bricks and blocks are the size they are due to the limitations of the human body...
 
  • Agree
Reactions: PeterL and robdon

Advertisers