Brexit, for once some facts.

PeterL

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 19, 2017
998
172
Dundee
Absolutely nothing... Except for the exceptions. Rich people can arrange that more of their wealth is spent on purchases by corporation or trusts , who don't pay these taxes. These items e.g houses, cars, aircraft, boats, grouse shooting lands, are nominally owned by the corporations, but are available only for use by the wealthy person.. and can be bartered for favours from the like minded .
Poor people spend more of their income on consumption.. food , rent, utilities, and have no methods for offsetting these taxes
.
Rich people can arrange for their trusts to buy at advantageous times, the poor need the food on the table today.

So remove all trusts , tax all corporations as individuals, no exemptions. Simplified tax codes, less need for private accountants, and you get a level or more level playing field.
I tend to agree with you, the whole thing should be simplified. KISS!

Having a loose connection with a Trust (my wife) they do seem to be tightly controlled, certainly in the US, there's no way you would get away with putting domestic expenses through it or indeed anything remotely charitable, strictly business with taxes payable.
 

Danidl

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2016
8,611
12,256
73
Ireland
I tend to agree with you, the whole thing should be simplified. KISS!

Having a loose connection with a Trust (my wife) they do seem to be tightly controlled, certainly in the US, there's no way you would get away with putting domestic expenses through it or indeed anything remotely charitable, strictly business with taxes payable.
... Well maybe she's not rich enough?.
If you have a corporation it can buy in services for anything it likes catering, security and pays corporation tax on its profits not its inputs so if it is not very profitable...
If on the other hand it is profitable it then creates another company in a less taxed regime and charges the parent corporation large prices for royalties or gizmo transfer prices and so the cycle continues...
 
  • Agree
Reactions: robdon

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,461
32,613
80
I tend to agree with you, the whole thing should be simplified. KISS!

Having a loose connection with a Trust (my wife) they do seem to be tightly controlled, certainly in the US, there's no way you would get away with putting domestic expenses through it or indeed anything remotely charitable, strictly business with taxes payable.
Since you "tend to agree" why did you suggest purchase tax was fair in the first place?

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk
 
  • Agree
Reactions: robdon

PeterL

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 19, 2017
998
172
Dundee
... Well maybe she's not rich enough?.
If you have a corporation it can buy in services for anything it likes catering, security and pays corporation tax on its profits not its inputs so if it is not very profitable...
If on the other hand it is profitable it then creates another company in a less taxed regime and charges the parent corporation large prices for royalties or gizmo transfer prices and so the cycle continues...
Certainly not a corporation, just a few farms in Indiana - Family Trust LLLC
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,152
30,567
Absolutely nothing... Except for the exceptions. Rich people can arrange that more of their wealth is spent on purchases by corporation or trusts , who don't pay these taxes. These items e.g houses, cars, aircraft, boats, grouse shooting lands, are nominally owned by the corporations, but are available only for use by the wealthy person.. and can be bartered for favours from the like minded .
Indeed, such abuse is practiced by small companies too. In one I worked for the chairman had two personal servants at his home, a housekeeper and a chauffeur/handyman. Both also had a very nominal duty in nearby company premises, and in charge of that unit and therefore their nominal manager I paid their wages.
.
 
  • Like
Reactions: robdon

PeterL

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 19, 2017
998
172
Dundee
Indeed, such abuse is practiced by small companies too. In one I worked for the chairman had two personal servants at his home, a housekeeper and a chauffeur/handyman. Both also had a very nominal duty in nearby company premises, and in charge of that unit and therefore their nominal manager I paid their wages.
.
There is abuse and will continue to be, whatever system we have. The fact that 'your' company was still able to make enough 'profit' to cover those additional wages might be wrong, yet - they were employed and would spend that money, locally one hopes? You didn't say they were illegal immigrants?
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,152
30,567
You didn't say they were illegal immigrants?
Both very English but very different in another way. One was still working in that job well into her eighties, the other died of prostate cancer two years short of retirement age.
.
 
  • Like
Reactions: robdon

PeterL

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 19, 2017
998
172
Dundee
Both very English but very different in another way. One was still working in that job well into her eighties, the other died of prostate cancer two years short of retirement age.
.
Almost a Robin Hood situation, rather than out and out corrupt?
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,152
30,567
Almost a Robin Hood situation, rather than out and out corrupt?
Not really, the chairman retired and wasn't keeping on the housekeeper. As someone on the basic state pension she was dependant on the additional income so I made her nominal duty a real but very easy one to continue her income. Basically she made tea!

So a corrupt situation followed by a wilfully inefficient but charitable one.

The company was bought by a nationally known very large one on the chairman's retirement, but that large company has since failed. I doubt it was my tea lady that brought them down though. :)
.
 
  • Like
Reactions: robdon

Steb

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jul 15, 2017
328
613
46
london
Almost a Robin Hood situation, rather than out and out corrupt?
you mean robin hood keeping most of the money himself and working the little band of brothers to death serving his needs? the snag with this morality is that what goes around really does come around (as you will likely find out if you get old in a conservative England and the nurse doesn't come after you soiled the bed the fourth time)
 
  • Agree
Reactions: robdon

PeterL

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 19, 2017
998
172
Dundee
you mean robin hood keeping most of the money himself and working the little band of brothers to death serving his needs? the snag with this morality is that what goes around really does come around (as you will likely find out if you get old in a conservative England and the nurse doesn't come after you soiled the bed the fourth time)
No, I don't mean that at all! The only thing you could possibly say here is that the guy employed two people, paid them wages, arguably out of the taxes he would have paid on his profits if he hadn't employed them. OK they cleaned his house and did the garden. I'm sure they didn't feel hard done by anymore than the decorator that takes a back-hander.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,152
30,567
No, I don't mean that at all! The only thing you could possibly say here is that the guy employed two people, paid them wages, arguably out of the taxes he would have paid on his profits if he hadn't employed them. OK they cleaned his house and did the garden. I'm sure they didn't feel hard done by anymore than the decorator that takes a back-hander.
Again not quite, but I understand that comments without knowing the whole story are made in good faith.

The chairman's company also owned four houses divided into eight flats that were alongside the business premises, all bought in the 1940s. So with the usual London rent escalation they'd been very profitable. The pensioner housekeeper lived in one of those flats and paid the full rent weekly, a sizeable chunk of the wage she earned. That also influenced my decision to keep her employed on a somewhat charitable basis.
.
 
  • Like
Reactions: robdon

Steb

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jul 15, 2017
328
613
46
london
No, I don't mean that at all! The only thing you could possibly say here is that the guy employed two people, paid them wages, arguably out of the taxes he would have paid on his profits if he hadn't employed them. OK they cleaned his house and did the garden. I'm sure they didn't feel hard done by anymore than the decorator that takes a back-hander.
you seem to forget that they were his "servants" - one of whom was "working into her eighties", the other "dying of prostate cancer two years short of retirement age" - while he was "retired". that may seem a level playing field to you, it doesn't to me. it about more than "backhanders", its about whether we get to live our lives in a more equal shared reality.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: robdon

Steb

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jul 15, 2017
328
613
46
london
Absolutely nothing... Except for the exceptions. Rich people can arrange that more of their wealth is spent on purchases by corporation or trusts , who don't pay these taxes. These items e.g houses, cars, aircraft, boats, grouse shooting lands, are nominally owned by the corporations, but are available only for use by the wealthy person.. and can be bartered for favours from the like minded .
Poor people spend more of their income on consumption.. food , rent, utilities, and have no methods for offsetting these taxes
.
Rich people can arrange for their trusts to buy at advantageous times, the poor need the food on the table today.

So remove all trusts , tax all corporations as individuals, no exemptions. Simplified tax codes, less need for private accountants, and you get a level or more level playing field.
this is really what it gets back to for me, the rich arranging their lives and the poor paying for it, the next time anyone complains about the house of lords bear in mind what you said about the chairman, after all it is simply about "backhanders and charity" on a different scale isn't it?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: robdon

PeterL

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 19, 2017
998
172
Dundee
you seem to forget that they were his "servants" - one of whom was "working into her eighties", the other "dying of prostate cancer two years short of retirement age" - while he was "retired". that may seem a level playing field to you, it doesn't to me. it about more than "backhanders", its about whether we get to live our lives in a more equal shared reality.
Come off it, this is just silly, petty nonsense. Obviously, I don't know the full story, anymore than you do, but I doubt either of the two felt hard done by.
 

Danidl

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2016
8,611
12,256
73
Ireland
this is really what it gets back to for me, the rich arranging their lives and the poor paying for it, the next time anyone complains about the house of lords bear in mind what you said about the chairman, after all it is simply about "backhanders and charity" on a different scale isn't it?
Steb,
What planet have you been living on?
As One of the golden circle .. I think in new york put it as.. Taxes, Taxes? Darling only the little people pay taxes .
Ms . Naomi Klein wrote a book some years ago about the new rights of a corporation and the fact that it was now a "person" in law. But with one slight difference... it was immortal so was exempt from such minor inconviences as death duties
Like them or not but death duties did serve as a mechanism for recycling wealth....
So who lobbied for this minor change? And who can afford to set up corporations?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: robdon and Steb

Steb

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jul 15, 2017
328
613
46
london
Come off it, this is just silly, petty nonsense. Obviously, I don't know the full story, anymore than you do, but I doubt either of the two felt hard done by.
no its not, the poor have lower life expectancy than the rich, as one would expect. I'm not really hung up with the specific case, more the general principle. But whether they felt hard done by has little bearing on the injustice.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: robdon

Advertisers