Brexit, for once some facts.

I'm not so sure that I am starting to realise that we have no cards to play. There are times when it seems like a loaded casino with just the one high-roller in the place. But, that's not the place I've walked into, or at least that was never my intention and like you say, we can walk away! Once the casino realise that, the odds will change or at least they will begin to butter us up rather than continue to play hardball?
You're still thinking the Casino is some foreign body... its not.. .we're the casino. We are the EU, we're one of the controlling parties, we don't have things imposed on us. We're one of the share holders at the casino, we helped build it and we signed up to lots of things and now we want out.
 
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PeterL

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You're still thinking the Casino is some foreign body... its not.. .we're the casino. We are the EU, we're one of the controlling parties, we don't have things imposed on us. We're one of the share holders at the casino, we helped build it and we signed up to lots of things and now we want out.
This is perhaps the crux of the matter? We are not the EU and truth be told have never really bought into its aims and ambitions which is why we are at the point we are - wanting out. Sorry leaving.
 
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This is perhaps the crux of the matter? We are not the EU and truth be told have never really bought into its aims and ambitions which is why we are at the point we are - wanting out. Sorry leaving.
yes, the fact you don't think we're the EU is the problem. We are the EU, you might not have bought into it, but it doesn't change the fact that the EU is a group of countries and we're just a much EU as we are UK. Many in the UK don't understand it, and therefore fear it.

If the EU offices were based in London I suspect the thoughts would be very different.
 
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PeterL

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yes, the fact you don't think we're the EU is the problem. We are the EU, you might not have bought into it, but it doesn't change the fact that the EU is a group of countries and we're just a much EU as we are UK. Many in the UK don't understand it, and therefore fear it.
Sorry, but that's simply not true, yes we did join the EU but even you have to admit that it has changed, out of all recognition to where it was 40 years ago? Perhaps because of that we, the UK, don't feel as comfortable, most certainly not with the thought of a USE. So, no we are not the EU, part of it certainly, at the moment, but it's not for us and it's for the EU to accept that as much as it is for the remoaners to do so as well


If the EU offices were based in London I suspect the thoughts would be very different.
This may well have changed things, we don't know of course but equally, it would have probably changed the direction of travel and that in turn altered our views?
 

Danidl

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Sorry, but that's simply not true, yes we did join the EU but even you have to admit that it has changed, out of all recognition to where it was 40 years ago? Perhaps because of that we, the UK, don't feel as comfortable, most certainly not with the thought of a USE. So, no we are not the EU, part of it certainly, at the moment, but it's not for us and it's for the EU to accept that as much as it is for the remoaners to do so as well




This may well have changed things, we don't know of course but equally, it would have probably changed the direction of travel and that in turn altered our views?
.." who is this we kimo sabe " as Tonto might have said. As the Indians came over the hill and the lone ranger had uttered " oh we are in a spot of bother here" or words to that effect.

Had those Britons who were most intimately involved ... those living in other European countries been included the result would most likely have been different. In any event the referendum was basically a tie.

It has been flagged up often here on this thread and elsewhere that any number of reasons affected that vote. Including the belief that it would never be carried.
 
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sorry for the long post... it is an interesting read.

A post written by Pete North - Editor at the Headquarters of the Leave Alliance.

Anyone still thinking it's all going to be ok might like to read this assessment of post Brexit Britain by one of the people who has helped us get into this situation.

"Basically we're looking at a ten year recession, loss of manufacturing, a skeletal NHS and loads of redundancies for lower middle classes, the Army and the RAF. It's all good though - we were a self-indulgent and spoilt nation before, and we can use this adversity to grow. Leavers knew what they were voting for, though, right . . .
"Now that we know there isn't going to be a deal we can at least narrow down some of the possibilities of what post-Brexit Britain looks like.
In the first year or so we are going to lose a lot of manufacturing. Virtually all JIT export manufacturing will fold inside a year. Initially we will see food prices plummet but this won't last. Domestic agriculture won't be able to compete and we'll see a gradual decline of UK production. UK meats will be premium produce and no longer affordable to most.
Once food importers have crushed all UK competition they will gradually raise their prices, simply because they can. Meanwhile wages will stay depressed and because of the collapse of disposable income and availability of staff, we can probably expect the service sector to take a big hit thus eliminating all the jobs that might provide a supplementary income.
Across the board we will see prices rising. There will be some serendipitous benefits but nothing that offsets the mass job losses. We will see a lot of foreign investment dry up and banking services will move to the EU. Dublin and Frankfurt. I expect that house prices will start to fall, but that's not going to do anyone any favours in the short to mid term.
Since a lot of freight will no longer be able to go through Calais we can expect a lot more use of the port at Hull so we may see an expansion in distribution centres in the North.
All in all we are looking at serious austerity as it will take a few years at least to rebuild our trade relations with third countries. If we go down the path of unilateral trade liberalisation then we will probably find it hard to strike new deals.
Meanwhile, since tax receipts will be way down we can expect major cuts to the forces and a number of Army redundancies. I expect to see RAF capability cut by a third. Soon enough it will become apparent that cuts to defence cannot go further so we can expect another round of cuts to council services. They will probably raise council tax to cope with it.
After years of the left bleating about austerity they are about to find out what it actually means. Britain is about to become a much more expensive pace to live. It will cause a spike in crime.
Interesting though will be how rapidly people adapt to it and habits will change, thus so will the culture. I expect cheap consumables from China will stay at low prices and they manage to circumvent the taxes and import controls anyway.
What I do expect to happen is a lot of engineering jobs to be axed since a lot of them are dependent on defence spending. It will kill off a number of parasitic resourcing firms and public sector suppliers. Basically it will wipe out the cosseted lower middle class and remind them that they are just as dispensable as the rest of us.
We can the expect to see a major rationalisation of the NHS and what functions it will perform. It will be more of a skeleton service than ever. I expect they will have trouble staffing it. Economic conditions more than any immigration control will bring numbers down to a trickle.
In every area of policy a lot of zombie projects will be culled and the things that survive on very slender justifications will fall. We can also expect banks to pull the plug in under-performing businesses. Unemployment will be back to where it was in the 80's.
The London economy will also change. Initially we will see an exodus back to the regions until rental prices normalise to the new conditions. Anyone who considers themselves "Just about managing" right now will look upon this time as carefree prosperity. There are going to be a lot of very pissed off people.
This will see a revival of local politics and national politics will become a lot more animated. I expect the Tories will be wiped out and we will have to put up with a Corbyn government for a while, but they will be tasked with making all the major cuts. We'll soon see how far their "compassion" really goes. Even if Corbs does manage to borrow, it won't go very far. It won't plug the hole.
Eventually things will settle down and we will get used to the new order of things. My gut instinct tells me that culturally it will be a vast improvement on the status quo. There will be more reasons to cooperate and more need to congregate. I expect to see a cultural revolution where young people actually start doing surprising and reckless things again rather than becoming tedious hipsters drinking energy drinks in pop-up cereal bar book shops or whatever it is they do these days. We'll be back to the days when students had to be frugal and from their resourcefulness manage to produce interesting things and events.
A few years in and we will then have started to rebuild EU relations, probably plugging back into Euratom, Erasmus, and a large part of the single market. It will take some time to plug back into the EU aviation market. The EU will be very cautious about what it lets us back in on.
Effectively we are looking at a ten year recession. Nothing ever experienced by those under 50. Admittedly this is not the Brexit I was gunning for. I wanted a negotiated settlement to maintain the single market so that we did not have to be substantially poorer, but, in a lot of ways I actually prefer this to the prospect of maintaining the 2015 status quo with ever degraded politics with increasingly less connection to each other.
I'm of the view that in recent years people have become increasingly spoiled and self-indulgent, inventing psychological problems for themselves in the absence of any real challenges or imperatives to grow as people. I have always primarily thought Brexit would be a reboot on British politics and culture. In a lot of ways it will bring back much of what is missing. A little austerity might very well make us less frivolous.
What I do know is that the banking crisis of 2008 set in motion a series of events whereby much of the corrective potential of it was dissipated with debt and spending, largely to preserve the political order. The disruptive potential of it was barely felt in the UK. Ever since we have stagnated and though the numbers on screen may tell a story of marginal growth, I just don't see it reflected in the world around me. I still see the regions dying out and London sucking the life and vitality out of every city, including Bristol. It reminds me that the wealth of a city is its people, not its contribution to GDP.
Ahead lies challenging times. It will not be easy. Those who expected things to improve will be disappointed. But then I have a clear conscience in this. I never made any big Brexit promises. I never said there would be sunlit uplands. I did not predict that the government would make this much of a pigs ear of it, or that we would be looking at the WTO option. I expected parliament would step in to prevent that. That it hasn't tells you a good deal about the state of modern politics.
And so with that in mind, as much as I would have had it go a different way, I think, given the opportunity to vote again I would still vote to leave. Eventually it gets to a point where any change will do. I prefer an uncertain future to the certainty I was looking at. "
 

PeterL

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Aug 19, 2017
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sorry for the long post... it is an interesting read.

A post written by Pete North - Editor at the Headquarters of the Leave Alliance.

Anyone still thinking it's all going to be ok might like to read this assessment of post Brexit Britain by one of the people who has helped us get into this situation.

"Basically we're looking at a ten year recession, loss of manufacturing, a skeletal NHS and loads of redundancies for lower middle classes, the Army and the RAF. It's all good though - we were a self-indulgent and spoilt nation before, and we can use this adversity to grow. Leavers knew what they were voting for, though, right . . .
"Now that we know there isn't going to be a deal we can at least narrow down some of the possibilities of what post-Brexit Britain looks like.
In the first year or so we are going to lose a lot of manufacturing. Virtually all JIT export manufacturing will fold inside a year. Initially we will see food prices plummet but this won't last. Domestic agriculture won't be able to compete and we'll see a gradual decline of UK production. UK meats will be premium produce and no longer affordable to most.
Once food importers have crushed all UK competition they will gradually raise their prices, simply because they can. Meanwhile wages will stay depressed and because of the collapse of disposable income and availability of staff, we can probably expect the service sector to take a big hit thus eliminating all the jobs that might provide a supplementary income.
Across the board we will see prices rising. There will be some serendipitous benefits but nothing that offsets the mass job losses. We will see a lot of foreign investment dry up and banking services will move to the EU. Dublin and Frankfurt. I expect that house prices will start to fall, but that's not going to do anyone any favours in the short to mid term.
Since a lot of freight will no longer be able to go through Calais we can expect a lot more use of the port at Hull so we may see an expansion in distribution centres in the North.
All in all we are looking at serious austerity as it will take a few years at least to rebuild our trade relations with third countries. If we go down the path of unilateral trade liberalisation then we will probably find it hard to strike new deals.
Meanwhile, since tax receipts will be way down we can expect major cuts to the forces and a number of Army redundancies. I expect to see RAF capability cut by a third. Soon enough it will become apparent that cuts to defence cannot go further so we can expect another round of cuts to council services. They will probably raise council tax to cope with it.
After years of the left bleating about austerity they are about to find out what it actually means. Britain is about to become a much more expensive pace to live. It will cause a spike in crime.
Interesting though will be how rapidly people adapt to it and habits will change, thus so will the culture. I expect cheap consumables from China will stay at low prices and they manage to circumvent the taxes and import controls anyway.
What I do expect to happen is a lot of engineering jobs to be axed since a lot of them are dependent on defence spending. It will kill off a number of parasitic resourcing firms and public sector suppliers. Basically it will wipe out the cosseted lower middle class and remind them that they are just as dispensable as the rest of us.
We can the expect to see a major rationalisation of the NHS and what functions it will perform. It will be more of a skeleton service than ever. I expect they will have trouble staffing it. Economic conditions more than any immigration control will bring numbers down to a trickle.
In every area of policy a lot of zombie projects will be culled and the things that survive on very slender justifications will fall. We can also expect banks to pull the plug in under-performing businesses. Unemployment will be back to where it was in the 80's.
The London economy will also change. Initially we will see an exodus back to the regions until rental prices normalise to the new conditions. Anyone who considers themselves "Just about managing" right now will look upon this time as carefree prosperity. There are going to be a lot of very pissed off people.
This will see a revival of local politics and national politics will become a lot more animated. I expect the Tories will be wiped out and we will have to put up with a Corbyn government for a while, but they will be tasked with making all the major cuts. We'll soon see how far their "compassion" really goes. Even if Corbs does manage to borrow, it won't go very far. It won't plug the hole.
Eventually things will settle down and we will get used to the new order of things. My gut instinct tells me that culturally it will be a vast improvement on the status quo. There will be more reasons to cooperate and more need to congregate. I expect to see a cultural revolution where young people actually start doing surprising and reckless things again rather than becoming tedious hipsters drinking energy drinks in pop-up cereal bar book shops or whatever it is they do these days. We'll be back to the days when students had to be frugal and from their resourcefulness manage to produce interesting things and events.
A few years in and we will then have started to rebuild EU relations, probably plugging back into Euratom, Erasmus, and a large part of the single market. It will take some time to plug back into the EU aviation market. The EU will be very cautious about what it lets us back in on.
Effectively we are looking at a ten year recession. Nothing ever experienced by those under 50. Admittedly this is not the Brexit I was gunning for. I wanted a negotiated settlement to maintain the single market so that we did not have to be substantially poorer, but, in a lot of ways I actually prefer this to the prospect of maintaining the 2015 status quo with ever degraded politics with increasingly less connection to each other.
I'm of the view that in recent years people have become increasingly spoiled and self-indulgent, inventing psychological problems for themselves in the absence of any real challenges or imperatives to grow as people. I have always primarily thought Brexit would be a reboot on British politics and culture. In a lot of ways it will bring back much of what is missing. A little austerity might very well make us less frivolous.
What I do know is that the banking crisis of 2008 set in motion a series of events whereby much of the corrective potential of it was dissipated with debt and spending, largely to preserve the political order. The disruptive potential of it was barely felt in the UK. Ever since we have stagnated and though the numbers on screen may tell a story of marginal growth, I just don't see it reflected in the world around me. I still see the regions dying out and London sucking the life and vitality out of every city, including Bristol. It reminds me that the wealth of a city is its people, not its contribution to GDP.
Ahead lies challenging times. It will not be easy. Those who expected things to improve will be disappointed. But then I have a clear conscience in this. I never made any big Brexit promises. I never said there would be sunlit uplands. I did not predict that the government would make this much of a pigs ear of it, or that we would be looking at the WTO option. I expected parliament would step in to prevent that. That it hasn't tells you a good deal about the state of modern politics.
And so with that in mind, as much as I would have had it go a different way, I think, given the opportunity to vote again I would still vote to leave. Eventually it gets to a point where any change will do. I prefer an uncertain future to the certainty I was looking at. "
Thanks for sharing: that really is a very good article and encapsulates much, if not all, of what I think as well, albeit I have a little more optimism. Quite what I base that on I just don't know but for sure we need to change, attitudes more than anything else and a good dose of realism won't go amiss. In the past it would have been a war no doubt but 60 years without one has turned many of us into people who expect rights without responsibility and anything that goes wrong in life is always someone else's fault.
 

PeterL

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"we" is a bit strong.... some of us is probably more accurate.


also don't forget all the rice that isn't in either of these bowls for a number of reasons.
No one, certainly not me has said the 'others' are insignificant but the reality is that 'they' failed to make their case and the 'others' did so. The rules of the game were clearly laid out 'Winner takes all'. I doubt you made any claims about fairness or otherwise before the vote. I suspect like many others you expected to win - don't be a poor loser. Let's get on with this mess that we find ourselves in and make something good of it. Together we win divided we fail, I'm sure you remember that one?
 
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Danidl

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Thanks for sharing: that really is a very good article and encapsulates much, if not all, of what I think as well, albeit I have a little more optimism. Quite what I base that on I just don't know but for sure we need to change, attitudes more than anything else and a good dose of realism won't go amiss. In the past it would have been a war no doubt but 60 years without one has turned many of us into people who expect rights without responsibility and anything that goes wrong in life is always someone else's fault.

Don't wish for war. It might come in any event. Referring to that larger posting I think that the author is being optimistic. After irish independence, the new republic engaged in an economic war with England. " Burn every thing English except their coal" was the mantra. Economic stagnation resulted from the 1930s through to the late 1950s as a result. England's population would have been in the same ratio to Ireland's as the EUs is to the UK s .
Ireland had the safety valve of exporting the unemployed to build Britains motorways, . Where would the uk export theirs. ?
 
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PeterL

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Don't wish for war. It might come in any event. Referring to that larger posting I think that the author is being optimistic. After irish independence, the new republic engaged in an economic war with England. " Burn every thing English except their coal" was the mantra. Economic stagnation resulted from the 1930s through to the late 1950s as a result. England's population would have been in the same ratio to Ireland's as the EUs is to the UK s .
Ireland had the safety valve of exporting the unemployed to build Britains motorways, . Where would the uk export theirs. ?
Yes, what to do with all those spare people.... war has always been the way in the past.

In many ways Europe (mainland) is way ahead of the game with this one?

We're not quite ready for colonising Mars and I'm not sure they, the unemployed, have the necessary levels of resolve, let alone optimism to volunteer - perhaps after a year or two of Post-Brexit? One for OG I suspect he is always ready with the pessimistic outcome?
 
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Danidl

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No one, certainly not me has said the 'others' are insignificant but the reality is that 'they' failed to make their case and the 'others' did so. The rules of the game were clearly laid out 'Winner takes all'. I doubt you made any claims about fairness or otherwise before the vote. I suspect like many others you expected to win - don't be a poor loser. Let's get on with this mess that we find ourselves in and make something good of it. Together we win divided we fail, I'm sure you remember that one?
Peter regrettably your first sentence is untrue. By their statements and actions and tweets and postings, a significant number of the leavers indicated and still indicate that the" remoaners ' their words , are of no consequence.
Acknowledging that it is a mess and then wishing to continue further down that path is that wise?
Your last message could be interpreted as an endorsement of the eu!!!
 

PeterL

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Peter regrettably your first sentence is untrue. By their statements and actions and tweets and postings, a significant number of the leavers indicated and still indicate that the" remoaners ' their words , are of no consequence.
Acknowledging that it is a mess and then wishing to continue further down that path is that wise?
Your last message could be interpreted as an endorsement of the eu!!!
The 'not me' bit was correct. Indeed, agree the last sentence could be interpreted that way but that wasn't what was intended. Change is never easy that's why we rarely see it and arguably why we often end up in the wrong place(s). Fiddling while Rome burns is a good analogy and the more I read the earlier thoughts of Pete North the better it sounds. You might also be right that it is indeed optimistic and if our politicians continue to act the way they have over Brexit then all the more likely to end in yet more tears before common-sense prevails. I think that is essentially what Pete North is saying?
 
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anotherkiwi

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"we" is a bit strong.... some of us is probably more accurate.


also don't forget all the rice that isn't in either of these bowls for a number of reasons.
Was that EU rice grown in the Valencia region, Camargue or the Po valley? I don't think you grow round grain rice in the UK?... :rolleyes:
 

Zlatan

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Listened to Nick Clegg trying to raise his career from oblivion this morning. How much support do posters see him getting.
Seems a strange scenario when two of the least popular mp,s in our history ( or is that 3 if we include VC) are the voices championing remain.
Tony Blair, Vince Cable and Nick Clegg , that's a stunning combination..
All has beens...and only one really was. That 48% just cant find leader...A shame really...or is it a sham?
If this were some novel by a certain sleasy ex mp it would never be taken seriously...more fiction that not a penny more.
 
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