BikeBiz story about eBikes.
- Thread starter KTM Bike Industries UK
- Start date
So what exactly do you want.......
Dealers to voluntarily stop selling dongles ?
The selling of dongles to be made illegal ?
Or dealers to just make it clear that dongles should only be used on private land ?
bike shops should not even sell dongles let alone fit them like ebike shop as its crystal clear that doing this will void the motors warranty yet he can get away with it.
and most shops will void the warranty on the hole bike if 1 is used and they find out. how???????
so if u want a bike with warranty and want a dongle ur options are limited.
its unfair to other dealers and martin point blank taking advantage of this and getting away with it
and most shops will void the warranty on the hole bike if 1 is used and they find out. how???????
so if u want a bike with warranty and want a dongle ur options are limited.
its unfair to other dealers and martin point blank taking advantage of this and getting away with it
None of those 3 options as 1 and 2 aren't possible and 3 isn't acceptable or even true.
The selling of dongles isn't illegal and we can't and don't expert that to stop.
What we are looking for is for the brands of bike that sell proper offroad mountain bikes, ie KTM, Cube, Scott, Trek, Haibike etc etc to require our dealers to stick to a simple code of best practice that is honest with customers and creates a level legal playing field in which they can all trade, and doesn't jeopardise future eMTB access rights.
Professionally run Ebike shops do not sell ebikes equipped with dongles for a whole host of reasons. There are a small number of ebikes shops that do, and these are misleading customers on a number of levels and putting you as customers at risk whilst also potentially killing the industry in the uk with their actions.
So what we want is a network of uk dealers that don't sell dongle'd bikes and offer clear reasons why they don't, so that end consumers are informed clearly.
All i can see happening is that yes all the manufacturers will get together against tuning but the bikes will still get dongled as they are available in other european countries,the only way is to get the motor designers to make the software tamper proof if that is possible?
Why isn't 3 acceptable or true ?
You can ride what you want on private land that isn't open to the public..... like pit bikes and unregistered dirt bikes that aren't legal on highways & byways/green lanes.
I can't see any logic in that statement. So he stops selling dongles, 70% (a wild guess) of his customers then go elsewhere for their bike. Oh yes the growth is elsewhere doh.
But seriously how can there be growth when the then standard product doesn't meet the requirements of the customer?
Doesn’t meet the requirements of a vociferous minority of customers. Most users are content with the speed limits and the compromises which had to be made to allow us to ride pedelecs free of regulation anywhere an unpowered bicycle can be ridden.
Ok - full disclosure - I have a dongle on my bike - Martin supplied it though I fitted it myself (Hi Martin - you're laying low in this huh - can't exactly blame you).
So the problem - from what I gather - is that people are going along to Mountain bike riding places or events and riding their electric mountain bikes - with dongle attached. Which is not allowed - legally I mean its not legal - because even though its private land it has public access (and the original letter maintains there is no such land anywhere in the country). Have I got this right so far? Yes?
OK.
First off - there must be some land where they could be used - to say there is 'no land' where they can be used in the UK at all - thats not right is it? Its not strictly correct - or is it? (answers on a postcard)
Next - the letter that was published - maintains that dealers should not fit these devices at all - because these dongle-enhanced bikes will eventually become so much of a problem through their high speed they'll get all e-bikes banned from any private land - thus any dealers fitting these dongles will be risking damaging the devlopment of the e-bike market through their actions.
Its an argument that has some strength to it for sure.
So I ask myself where do I stand in this (particularly as I use a dongle myself - though I am very careful and don't flaunt it). But still there it is.
First off: As a comsumer - I would have got one of these dongles on my bike. Whatever it took. Because I simply don't like it cutting out at 15mph. I find 20mph much more to my taste. So by hook or by crook I was going to get one. And fit it. Or get it fitted. That's just me. Somebody earlier questionned how many people have that attitude. I don't know. For me it was as they say a 'no-brainer'. Yes I know it is illegal. So is doing 32 mph in a 30 limit or 21 in those new 20mph limits. To me its about being sensible. I don't go mad. I accept the risk. We only live once. Etc.
As to what the dealers 'should' do? Bottom line I have to say I think thats up to them. Somebody is going to sell these things to people like me. It might as well be them. But perhaps their 'warning this is not legal except on private land' could be expanded to cover more accurately where it can be used.
But either way - market forces pretty much always prevail. There is a market for these things. You can regulate to an extent - but in the end if there are people with good money willing to pay - then there will be suppliers - thats the rule of the jungle - thats the beauty of the supply chain - that's what has facilitated this massive growth since around 100,000 year ago. Trade. In the end - trade usually, eventually, wins. We shall see.
So the problem - from what I gather - is that people are going along to Mountain bike riding places or events and riding their electric mountain bikes - with dongle attached. Which is not allowed - legally I mean its not legal - because even though its private land it has public access (and the original letter maintains there is no such land anywhere in the country). Have I got this right so far? Yes?
OK.
First off - there must be some land where they could be used - to say there is 'no land' where they can be used in the UK at all - thats not right is it? Its not strictly correct - or is it? (answers on a postcard)
Next - the letter that was published - maintains that dealers should not fit these devices at all - because these dongle-enhanced bikes will eventually become so much of a problem through their high speed they'll get all e-bikes banned from any private land - thus any dealers fitting these dongles will be risking damaging the devlopment of the e-bike market through their actions.
Its an argument that has some strength to it for sure.
So I ask myself where do I stand in this (particularly as I use a dongle myself - though I am very careful and don't flaunt it). But still there it is.
First off: As a comsumer - I would have got one of these dongles on my bike. Whatever it took. Because I simply don't like it cutting out at 15mph. I find 20mph much more to my taste. So by hook or by crook I was going to get one. And fit it. Or get it fitted. That's just me. Somebody earlier questionned how many people have that attitude. I don't know. For me it was as they say a 'no-brainer'. Yes I know it is illegal. So is doing 32 mph in a 30 limit or 21 in those new 20mph limits. To me its about being sensible. I don't go mad. I accept the risk. We only live once. Etc.
As to what the dealers 'should' do? Bottom line I have to say I think thats up to them. Somebody is going to sell these things to people like me. It might as well be them. But perhaps their 'warning this is not legal except on private land' could be expanded to cover more accurately where it can be used.
But either way - market forces pretty much always prevail. There is a market for these things. You can regulate to an extent - but in the end if there are people with good money willing to pay - then there will be suppliers - thats the rule of the jungle - thats the beauty of the supply chain - that's what has facilitated this massive growth since around 100,000 year ago. Trade. In the end - trade usually, eventually, wins. We shall see.
Sorry to sound naive. A "dongled" bike has the restriction of 25kph removed. A Spedelec (which most manufacturers - including KTM) has a larger motor but is restricted to a higher limit. Spedelec needs to be registered plated and insured.
So my question is why are Spedelec sold in the UK as surely not plating them is as bad as dongling a pedelec. How does one test ride a Spedelec? Does it have "trade plates"? Why can I buy one in a shop and ride it home? I know a car dealer won't let me drive a car home unless it's taxed first.
Or am I completely riding up the wrong path here?
So my question is why are Spedelec sold in the UK as surely not plating them is as bad as dongling a pedelec. How does one test ride a Spedelec? Does it have "trade plates"? Why can I buy one in a shop and ride it home? I know a car dealer won't let me drive a car home unless it's taxed first.
Or am I completely riding up the wrong path here?
That has been covered here many times, including from memory further up this thread. They are not legal, and it is illegal to test ride them on the road, and it probably exposes the dealer to legal action if he lets someone test ride it on the road. But it is not illegal to sell it. It’s only illegal to use it anywhere other than private land which has no footpaths or bridalways running through it or public access of any kind.
Good points Crockers & JohnCade.
Also begs the questions why has Col displayed them with UK prices at the NEC.
Also how come there is at least one UK dealer that I have seen advertising 350w KTM eMTBs. At least a dongled bike can be made legal in a few seconds. An S-pedelec or 350w KTM eMTB can never be used legally per Col's logic.
Also begs the questions why has Col displayed them with UK prices at the NEC.
Also how come there is at least one UK dealer that I have seen advertising 350w KTM eMTBs. At least a dongled bike can be made legal in a few seconds. An S-pedelec or 350w KTM eMTB can never be used legally per Col's logic.
Since I think everyone would agree that dongles are fitted to a fairly small minority of bikes that could have them then I would say it’s a minority interest really.
Someone could put up an anonymous survey to see how many here have them. It wouldn’t be very representative of pedelec riders as a whole because most of them just use their bikes to go to the shops and for nice scenic rides I would guess. But it would give some idea which could be extrapolated from in a rough way.
If its such a small minority that are fitting them, then its not really a big deal then. On one hand some are saying thats a small minority fitting dongles and on the other some are saying its a threat to the way of life of EMTB's.
But i dont believe it is a minority, because its not just dongles, its soldering the shunt in controllers and resetting the max speed in digital displays along with dongles.
The fact is many people want more speed than the legal 15.5 mph.... If they want it, they are going to do it in whatever way they can.
Whenever someone talks to me about my Ebike, they almost always ask how fast is it and can you make them faster.
But i dont believe it is a minority, because its not just dongles, its soldering the shunt in controllers and resetting the max speed in digital displays along with dongles.
The fact is many people want more speed than the legal 15.5 mph.... If they want it, they are going to do it in whatever way they can.
Whenever someone talks to me about my Ebike, they almost always ask how fast is it and can you make them faster.
It’s only a big deal for the makers and users of legal eMBs which is what this thread is all about. As usual many people half read these threads and jump in thinking that it’s about all pedelec derestriction.
I say that derestricting is a minority pursuit, and that most ebike users are fairly old and don’t want to go faster than is permitted. Or rather they might, but realise that you can’t have everything you want in life, and that if you want a pedelec to be a bicycle then you have to accept the obligations and restrictions that go with the right to be free from regulation that a bicycle has.
They are also more likely to be concerned of the risk to their driving licences and even home if found liable for an accident whilst using an illegal bike. Their insurance would not cover them, and if someone they hit was put in a wheelchair they could well lose their home.
But as I said put up a survey and see how many here do derestrict their bikes. There will be a lot more here than pedelec riders as a whole.
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