BikeBiz story about eBikes.

soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
16,867
6,491
forget haibike i have not had a reply in 2 years, like not even there lol

got more chance of laying a gold egg ;)
 

robdon

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 5, 2013
267
-70
If anyone wants a dongle fitted, they can do it themselves, or get a handyman
to do it for a few pounds, they do not need the dealer to fit it, they are fairly simple to fit.
just buy the bike and get on with it.
ROB
 
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soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
16,867
6,491
the admin on this place wants to sort out there tc as there braking there own rules advertising shops that sell dongles with bikes.

encourages unlawful activity, or otherwise violates any laws.


thought my site rules was basic lol
 

Yamdude

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 20, 2013
842
639
Somerset
As an industry we are looking for best practice from our retailers and at least honestly about the products use.

Adding a dongle to an Ebike means it is no longer legally classed as a bicycle and no longer CE certified, so can't be sold by a responsible seller and can't be used by a responsible user.

It's not like buying a fast motorbike, because a shop can legally sell a fast motorbike and you can legally use a fast motorbike. An Ebike sold with a dongle does not conform to trading standards law and we've found no where in Europe they can really be legally used.

Compare it to a racing motorbike that's for tracks only, ie one you can't use on the road, with no tax, no mot and no insurance. That's what they are like.

So proper bike shops should not be selling them if they want the Ebike industry in the uk to survive.

The good news is Cube have called me and back this 100%, and the director of Scott Uk is calling me on Monday, so it's really just haibike left.

There are close to 50 Ebike shops who are currently chatting via email about a joint letter / agreement to support a professional stance on this matter and try to make sure customers are given the correct information.

Hopefully progress is being made.
So what exactly do you want.......
Dealers to voluntarily stop selling dongles ?
The selling of dongles to be made illegal ?
Or dealers to just make it clear that dongles should only be used on private land ?
 

soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
16,867
6,491
bike shops should not even sell dongles let alone fit them like ebike shop as its crystal clear that doing this will void the motors warranty yet he can get away with it.

and most shops will void the warranty on the hole bike if 1 is used and they find out. how???????

so if u want a bike with warranty and want a dongle ur options are limited.

its unfair to other dealers and martin point blank taking advantage of this and getting away with it
 
So what exactly do you want.......
Dealers to voluntarily stop selling dongles ?
The selling of dongles to be made illegal ?
Or dealers to just make it clear that dongles should only be used on private land ?
None of those 3 options as 1 and 2 aren't possible and 3 isn't acceptable or even true.

The selling of dongles isn't illegal and we can't and don't expert that to stop.

What we are looking for is for the brands of bike that sell proper offroad mountain bikes, ie KTM, Cube, Scott, Trek, Haibike etc etc to require our dealers to stick to a simple code of best practice that is honest with customers and creates a level legal playing field in which they can all trade, and doesn't jeopardise future eMTB access rights.

Professionally run Ebike shops do not sell ebikes equipped with dongles for a whole host of reasons. There are a small number of ebikes shops that do, and these are misleading customers on a number of levels and putting you as customers at risk whilst also potentially killing the industry in the uk with their actions.

So what we want is a network of uk dealers that don't sell dongle'd bikes and offer clear reasons why they don't, so that end consumers are informed clearly.
 

nemesis

Esteemed Pedelecer
Mar 14, 2011
521
343
All i can see happening is that yes all the manufacturers will get together against tuning but the bikes will still get dongled as they are available in other european countries,the only way is to get the motor designers to make the software tamper proof if that is possible?
 

trex

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2011
7,703
2,671
if I understand Col correctly, he wants that all manufacturers refuse to supply any dealer that offers for sale or to fit a dongle.
His issue is a commercial level playing field.
Customers are of course free to buy their dongle on the internet.
 

Yamdude

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 20, 2013
842
639
Somerset
None of those 3 options as 1 and 2 aren't possible and 3 isn't acceptable or even true.

The selling of dongles isn't illegal and we can't and don't expert that to stop.

What we are looking for is for the brands of bike that sell proper offroad mountain bikes, ie KTM, Cube, Scott, Trek, Haibike etc etc to require our dealers to stick to a simple code of best practice that is honest with customers and creates a level legal playing field in which they can all trade, and doesn't jeopardise future eMTB access rights.

Professionally run Ebike shops do not sell ebikes equipped with dongles for a whole host of reasons. There are a small number of ebikes shops that do, and these are misleading customers on a number of levels and putting you as customers at risk whilst also potentially killing the industry in the uk with their actions.

So what we want is a network of uk dealers that don't sell dongle'd bikes and offer clear reasons why they don't, so that end consumers are informed clearly.
Why isn't 3 acceptable or true ?
You can ride what you want on private land that isn't open to the public..... like pit bikes and unregistered dirt bikes that aren't legal on highways & byways/green lanes.
 

Artstu

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 2, 2009
2,420
925
The remainder is up to Martin, but if he has any sense, then he will see that by stopping the promoting of dongles for e-mtb use and the selling of, he would actually be encouraging growth, not destroying it. Something that I'm sure that everyone would love to see.
I can't see any logic in that statement. So he stops selling dongles, 70% (a wild guess) of his customers then go elsewhere for their bike. Oh yes the growth is elsewhere doh.

But seriously how can there be growth when the then standard product doesn't meet the requirements of the customer?
 

JohnCade

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 16, 2014
1,486
736
I can't see any logic in that statement. So he stops selling dongles, 70% (a wild guess) of his customers then go elsewhere for their bike. Oh yes the growth is elsewhere doh.

But seriously how can there be growth when the then standard product doesn't meet the requirements of the customer?
Doesn’t meet the requirements of a vociferous minority of customers. Most users are content with the speed limits and the compromises which had to be made to allow us to ride pedelecs free of regulation anywhere an unpowered bicycle can be ridden.
 
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Artstu

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 2, 2009
2,420
925
Doesn’t meet the requirements of a vociferous minority of customers. Most users are content with the speed limits and the compromises which had to be made to allow us to ride pedelecs free of regulation anywhere an unpowered bicycle can be ridden.
Is it a minority though? and those who oppose seem pretty vociferous to me.
 

OxygenJames

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 8, 2012
2,593
1,041
Ok - full disclosure - I have a dongle on my bike - Martin supplied it though I fitted it myself (Hi Martin - you're laying low in this huh - can't exactly blame you).

So the problem - from what I gather - is that people are going along to Mountain bike riding places or events and riding their electric mountain bikes - with dongle attached. Which is not allowed - legally I mean its not legal - because even though its private land it has public access (and the original letter maintains there is no such land anywhere in the country). Have I got this right so far? Yes?

OK.

First off - there must be some land where they could be used - to say there is 'no land' where they can be used in the UK at all - thats not right is it? Its not strictly correct - or is it? (answers on a postcard)

Next - the letter that was published - maintains that dealers should not fit these devices at all - because these dongle-enhanced bikes will eventually become so much of a problem through their high speed they'll get all e-bikes banned from any private land - thus any dealers fitting these dongles will be risking damaging the devlopment of the e-bike market through their actions.

Its an argument that has some strength to it for sure.

So I ask myself where do I stand in this (particularly as I use a dongle myself - though I am very careful and don't flaunt it). But still there it is.

First off: As a comsumer - I would have got one of these dongles on my bike. Whatever it took. Because I simply don't like it cutting out at 15mph. I find 20mph much more to my taste. So by hook or by crook I was going to get one. And fit it. Or get it fitted. That's just me. Somebody earlier questionned how many people have that attitude. I don't know. For me it was as they say a 'no-brainer'. Yes I know it is illegal. So is doing 32 mph in a 30 limit or 21 in those new 20mph limits. To me its about being sensible. I don't go mad. I accept the risk. We only live once. Etc.

As to what the dealers 'should' do? Bottom line I have to say I think thats up to them. Somebody is going to sell these things to people like me. It might as well be them. But perhaps their 'warning this is not legal except on private land' could be expanded to cover more accurately where it can be used.

But either way - market forces pretty much always prevail. There is a market for these things. You can regulate to an extent - but in the end if there are people with good money willing to pay - then there will be suppliers - thats the rule of the jungle - thats the beauty of the supply chain - that's what has facilitated this massive growth since around 100,000 year ago. Trade. In the end - trade usually, eventually, wins. We shall see.
 

Crockers

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 19, 2014
821
689
71
Sorry to sound naive. A "dongled" bike has the restriction of 25kph removed. A Spedelec (which most manufacturers - including KTM) has a larger motor but is restricted to a higher limit. Spedelec needs to be registered plated and insured.

So my question is why are Spedelec sold in the UK as surely not plating them is as bad as dongling a pedelec. How does one test ride a Spedelec? Does it have "trade plates"? Why can I buy one in a shop and ride it home? I know a car dealer won't let me drive a car home unless it's taxed first.

Or am I completely riding up the wrong path here?
 

JohnCade

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 16, 2014
1,486
736
Sorry to sound naive. A "dongled" bike has the restriction of 25kph removed. A Spedelec (which most manufacturers - including KTM) has a larger motor but is restricted to a higher limit. Spedelec needs to be registered plated and insured.

So my question is why are Spedelec sold in the UK as surely not plating them is as bad as dongling a pedelec. How does one test ride a Spedelec? Does it have "trade plates"? Why can I buy one in a shop and ride it home? I know a car dealer won't let me drive a car home unless it's taxed first.

Or am I completely riding up the wrong path here?

That has been covered here many times, including from memory further up this thread. They are not legal, and it is illegal to test ride them on the road, and it probably exposes the dealer to legal action if he lets someone test ride it on the road. But it is not illegal to sell it. It’s only illegal to use it anywhere other than private land which has no footpaths or bridalways running through it or public access of any kind.
 

Wander

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 8, 2013
586
429
Good points Crockers & JohnCade.

Also begs the questions why has Col displayed them with UK prices at the NEC.

Also how come there is at least one UK dealer that I have seen advertising 350w KTM eMTBs. At least a dongled bike can be made legal in a few seconds. An S-pedelec or 350w KTM eMTB can never be used legally per Col's logic.
 

JohnCade

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 16, 2014
1,486
736
Is it a minority though? and those who oppose seem pretty vociferous to me.
Since I think everyone would agree that dongles are fitted to a fairly small minority of bikes that could have them then I would say it’s a minority interest really.

Someone could put up an anonymous survey to see how many here have them. It wouldn’t be very representative of pedelec riders as a whole because most of them just use their bikes to go to the shops and for nice scenic rides I would guess. But it would give some idea which could be extrapolated from in a rough way.
 

Yamdude

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 20, 2013
842
639
Somerset
If its such a small minority that are fitting them, then its not really a big deal then. On one hand some are saying thats a small minority fitting dongles and on the other some are saying its a threat to the way of life of EMTB's.
But i dont believe it is a minority, because its not just dongles, its soldering the shunt in controllers and resetting the max speed in digital displays along with dongles.
The fact is many people want more speed than the legal 15.5 mph.... If they want it, they are going to do it in whatever way they can.
Whenever someone talks to me about my Ebike, they almost always ask how fast is it and can you make them faster.
 
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JohnCade

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 16, 2014
1,486
736
If its such a small minority that are fitting them, then its not really a big deal then. On one hand some are saying thats a small minority fitting dongles and on the other some are saying its a threat to the way of life of EMTB's.
But i dont believe it is a minority, because its not just dongles, its soldering the shunt in controllers and resetting the max speed in digital displays along with dongles.
The fact is many people want more speed than the legal 15.5 mph.... If they want it, they are going to do it in whatever way they can.
Whenever someone talks to me about my Ebike, they almost always ask how fast is it and can you make them faster.
It’s only a big deal for the makers and users of legal eMBs which is what this thread is all about. As usual many people half read these threads and jump in thinking that it’s about all pedelec derestriction.

I say that derestricting is a minority pursuit, and that most ebike users are fairly old and don’t want to go faster than is permitted. Or rather they might, but realise that you can’t have everything you want in life, and that if you want a pedelec to be a bicycle then you have to accept the obligations and restrictions that go with the right to be free from regulation that a bicycle has.

They are also more likely to be concerned of the risk to their driving licences and even home if found liable for an accident whilst using an illegal bike. Their insurance would not cover them, and if someone they hit was put in a wheelchair they could well lose their home.

But as I said put up a survey and see how many here do derestrict their bikes. There will be a lot more here than pedelec riders as a whole.
 
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